airtwardo 7 #76 April 5, 2013 Quote Quote IF you were a DZO and several customers were offended by what in essence is a racist tattoo aimed at them...would you request the wearer of that tat cover it up? But "infidel" is a derogatory expression they use to describe US. Would I have to cover up a tattoo on my calf that called me "Honky"? Actually it's not~ this is taken from a post earlier in the day in SC: " I'm not saying my opinion is more valid than anyone elses, but I am an Arabic linguist and the Arabic language has been my profession for the last 16 years. I only mention it because it has given me an opportunity to see the word's place in modern lexicon. The word may mean 'non-believer' in a doctrinal sense but in Post-9/11 Iraq and Afghanistan it evokes images of anti-Islamic military occupation. Saying you got the word inked on your leg to tell people you aren't Muslim is like saying the reason you joined the Westboro Baptist Church is to let people know you aren't gay. Every language is full of words that have multiple meanings. For example, the word "spook" has its dictionary definition but has also been used as a racial slur. In Arabic, the term "Haji" is an honorific, used to address people who have (or assumed to have due to their advanced age) made the pilgrimage to Mecca according to the tenents of Islam. American soldiers turned the word into a slur (urbandictionary.com has some examples if you're interested) similar to 'nip' (from WWII), 'slope' (from Korea and Vietnam) and 'skinny' (Somalia). All of those words have other meanings but have taken different, inflammatory usages with time. Do a Google image search for "infidel" and you'll see the results are decidedly militaristic and anti-Muslim. I think the swastika example is a good one. Originally it meant one thing but it has come to symbolize something completely different and much more offensive. I don't have a problem with the tattoo itself but I also don't have a problem with the DZO exercising their right to refuse service to anyone they feel is hindering their business. If the skydiving community decided to boycott that DZ based on the management's policy, I support that too. All I'm saying is that you can't make a conscious decision to display a potentially offensive tattoo and be surprised when people are offended. The tattoo is little more than a taunt and he got exactly what he was looking for.. a reaction. " ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #77 April 5, 2013 To be fair he is up front about his goals. "The absolute and number one goal of this website is to help myself." Donations would certainly help me out so I see where hes coming from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #78 April 5, 2013 QuoteTo be fair he is up front about his goals. "The absolute and number one goal of this website is to help myself." Donations would certainly help me out so I see where hes coming from. That's fine unless you have to trash a business to reach your goal. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #79 April 5, 2013 QuoteQuoteTo be fair he is up front about his goals. "The absolute and number one goal of this website is to help myself." Donations would certainly help me out so I see where hes coming from. That's fine unless you have to trash a business to reach your goal. He did nothing to trash the business. He has a tattoo that denotes himself as a nonbeliever. Not a lie, not a derogatory statement on another individual or a religion, just a statement about himself. The DZ bought into the argument that it demeaned the Qataris who were there also. The dropzone took it upon themselves to intervene on behalf on the Qataris. The person in question offered to go somewhere else rather than cover his beliefs, the DZ set itself up for a poor review. Not because he is a decorated veteran, not because he is a skydiver, but because he is an American on US soil and is protected by the constitution. What if the Qataris had asked someone with a Star of David tattoo to cover it up? Or Christ on a cross? What if the pilot had a St. Christopher medal hanging in the cockpit and that damned the aircraft for them? Those all indicate non-believer status. The DZO had an easy out: this is America and many people speak their mind in the form of art on their body. If it so offends you, you can look away, come back another day, or just deal with it, cupcake. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abuaeden 0 #80 April 5, 2013 Don't get sucked into believing that his tattoo was an innocent declaration of non-belief. It is a provocation, nothing more. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4467380#4467380 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #81 April 5, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go&feature=player_detailpage#t=26sPlease don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #82 April 5, 2013 It sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. And surely there can be a major difference between wearing a symbol expressing your support for something and wearing one that expresses your non-support and the other way around depending on the topic. Is "Get God out of America!" no more provocative than "In God we trust"? Is "Equal rights for women, now!" no less provocative than "Iron my shirt, bitch"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #83 April 5, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhavaXOynO8Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #84 April 5, 2013 Please keep on topic guys (had to hide a couple posts). While the issue at hand is relevant to the thread, it has started to take a tangent that would be best suited in this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4467380#4467380 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #85 April 5, 2013 QuoteIt sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #86 April 5, 2013 Quote Quote It sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders. God Bless America. You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #87 April 5, 2013 QuoteQuoteIt sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders. Bullshit back. 51% of us in here don't see it that way. The way we see it, the jumper was deliberately picking a fight, and he got what he sought. See above, as well as the companion thread (threads?) in SC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #88 April 5, 2013 QuoteQuoteIt sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders. I don't see how that is bullshit or in contradiction to what I said. Businesses usually aren't about charity or letting others express their political or religious views at your expense. As I said, the DZO tried to find a way where everybody would keep jumping. What's your solution? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #89 April 5, 2013 Quote Quote Quote It sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders. Bullshit back. 51% of us in here don't see it that way. The way we see it, the jumper was deliberately picking a fight, and he got what he sought. See above, as well as the companion thread (threads?) in SC Apparently I missed where he walked up to the Qataris and pointed to his tattoo or intentionally walked by them multiple times to make sure they saw it. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #90 April 5, 2013 I'm going to expand on my more flippant reply. For those who keep harping on about freedom of expression and this is america land of the free, and how about if someone tried doing the equivalent of this in the middle east they'd be in so much trouble.... that's the whole fucking point! FFS!! You live in a land that, for this example at least, means being a deliberately offensive wanker results in being asked to be less of an offensive wanker. Not whipped, not imprisoned, not beheaded. Talked. To. Politely. In the interest of capitalism, the unofficial national religion. Where's the problem again? You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #91 April 5, 2013 Quote Quote Quote Quote It sounds like the DZO was simply trying to find a way that would work for everybody. Bullshit. This was pure and simple greed to appease big spenders. Bullshit back. 51% of us in here don't see it that way. The way we see it, the jumper was deliberately picking a fight, and he got what he sought. See above, as well as the companion thread (threads?) in SC Apparently I missed where he walked up to the Qataris and pointed to his tattoo or intentionally walked by them multiple times to make sure they saw it. You know, you're right. That argument wins the day right there. As I said in the other thread, at some point the repetition is repetitious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #92 April 5, 2013 Quote I'm going to expand on my more flippant reply. For those who keep harping on about freedom of expression and this is america land of the free, and how about if someone tried doing the equivalent of this in the middle east they'd be in so much trouble.... that's the whole fucking point! FFS!! You live in a land that, for this example at least, means being a deliberately offensive wanker results in being asked to be less of an offensive wanker. Not whipped, not imprisoned, not beheaded. Talked. To. Politely. In the interest of capitalism, the unofficial national religion. Where's the problem again? Yes. The visitor to that Muslim country if they showed an offensive to the local culture tattoo would be severely treated, but that's irrelevant. Were an American group in a Muslim country and a local person had a tattoo that an American would find offensive, could they approach someone and expect the local to cover it up or leave?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistercwood 287 #93 April 5, 2013 *whoooooosh* ETA: It's late and I've had a few (I am an aussie after all) so I may have been ambiguous in my last post. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Go back and re-read it, think about the publicly cried pros/cons of the two mentioned cultures, and if you still don't get it let me know, I'll try again in the morning. You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #94 April 5, 2013 Quote Were an American group in a Muslim country and a local person had a tattoo that an American would find offensive, could they approach someone and expect the local to cover it up or leave? I think you need to get out more. You would probably be shocked of how poorly the local population in most parts of the less fortunate areas of the world is treated compared to wealthy western visitors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #95 April 5, 2013 Quote Quote I'm going to expand on my more flippant reply. For those who keep harping on about freedom of expression and this is america land of the free, and how about if someone tried doing the equivalent of this in the middle east they'd be in so much trouble.... that's the whole fucking point! FFS!! You live in a land that, for this example at least, means being a deliberately offensive wanker results in being asked to be less of an offensive wanker. Not whipped, not imprisoned, not beheaded. Talked. To. Politely. In the interest of capitalism, the unofficial national religion. Where's the problem again? Yes. The visitor to that Muslim country if they showed an offensive to the local culture tattoo would be severely treated, but that's irrelevant. Were an American group in a Muslim country and a local person had a tattoo that an American would find offensive, could they approach someone and expect the local to cover it up or leave? Depends no doubt on how much money the American group was spending and how good a capitalist the business owner was. For example - I've been to Muslim countries that were officially dry. The hotel had a bar selling booze. Money talks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #96 April 5, 2013 >What if the Qataris had asked someone with a Star of David tattoo to cover it up? I'd expect the DZO to talk to the jumper about it. And "no, I'm not going to cover it up" would be a perfectly valid response. It generally falls to the DZO to mediate these disputes, since it's his place of business. >The DZO had an easy out: this is America and many people speak their mind in the >form of art on their body. In other words, punt on the whole thing and do nothing. Yes, that's an option - but most DZO's take a more active role at their DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #97 April 5, 2013 I appreciate the replies to my post. I guess that tat MAY be as offensive as a swastika to some people. I didn't consider that. With that said, freedom of speech in this country means putting up with some expression you find offensive. I know I'm offended daily by some of what I see. But I prefer that to any kind of censorship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #98 April 5, 2013 Lemme put this in terms near & dear to you: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4eex0cRtU1rpcln8o1_400.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #99 April 5, 2013 Not directed at Bill, but at everyoneYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #100 April 5, 2013 QuoteNot directed at Bill, but at everyone Don't you mean? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
