Landing Patterns - altitude to begin each leg

[DocPop 1]

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Let me rephrase, then.

You should move your pattern downwind to accomodate for overshooting. You should not change your altitudes. Leave your altitudes alone, so that in the air you're always flying the same pattern. Just slide the points across the ground. Good altitudes to use are 300, 600, and 900. Some use 1000, 500, and 250. I like 3/6/9 because they're the same amount of altitude loss per leg, so on no-wind days they cover the same distance across the ground.

I like the 300/600/900ft reference altitudes...I'm going to try that next jump.

When you're trying it out, note the amount of time you get in full flight from the last turn to flare.

You want at least 10 seconds - if you don't get that, you should take your altitudes up.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[popsjumper 2]

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Once you figure out YOUR altitudes they should not change from jump to jump .

Ian , I have to question this. Consider high wind vs normal wind situations.
Just picking numbers off the top of my head for demo purposes only:

900 start downwind
600 turn on base
300 turn on final

Normal winds my downwind leg will be let's say 10 seconds to 600 feet and I have traveled say 500 feet over the ground.

High winds using same numbers
High winds my downwind leg will be let's say 10 seconds to 600 feet BUT now I have traveled 1000 feet over the ground. Now I'm far downwind of my target unable to make it back to the DZ.

This situation happens somewhat often especially with students when they are told to turn at specific altitudes. How many students have we seen come juuuust squeaking in from behind the hanger?

That is why I strongly oppose specified altitudes for turning.

Your thoughts?

I'm not Ian but here's my take.

The point about using fixed altitudes is that your canopy will always take the same amount of time to lose a fixed amount of altitude regardless of what the winds are doing. That allows you to fly the same rhythm every jump regardless of conditions.

In strong winds, you need to move your pattern relative to the ground to compensate, so you start your downwind leg correspondingly further out ...(

Nice theory....for a static utopia. Everybody wants to think theory is going to save their ass. Well, it does relieve the responsibility of thinking on your feet. You don't have to know shit about real-life...just toe the line. We're not in a clinic. We're not taking part in clinical trials. Theory is good for a starting point in developing judgement skills...not much more.

Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....oh wait.

-Oooops.. slower than I thought...I'm not gonna get to the next turning point by 600 ft. Oh shit.....drainage ditch here I come!


Good luck with your pre-designated altitudes and turning points. Why depend on tools that are quite likely to get you in trouble?

Oh....what about those other guys? Do you stick to your pre-designated markers while trying to share the skies with others who may or may not be dead on target like you think you are.


Good luck with that too.

Use your eyes and judgement....that's what works best and in, by far and away, most situations.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....

Use your eyes and judgement....that's what works best and in, by far and away, most situations.

Although I agree with what you're saying,
Also, we duct tape a radio to their butt to talk them down if they screw up. They will, in time, develop a sense of what to do and when. That “feel” you describe takes time to develop. I think the biggest advantage is the predictability that we are starting to see in the landing pattern. That is, until some yahoo comes screaming thru from the wrong direction.

The most important thing to remember about the landing pattern is, if nothing else, that it’s fluid!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

I have a pretty good idea before I even get in the plane. I use AWAS, sites like www.ryancarlton.com, etc to get a good idea of wind direction and strength. Certainly not infalible, but I'm not going in blind. I'd expect EVERY jumper to do this. Then, on the jump, and ride to altitude, I'm constantly assessing what I expect (from the above) with what is really happening and making appropriate adjustments.

That said, as the poster above me mentions - it's very fluid. You have to understand and react to the environment you're in. Unfortunately it's near impossible to react when you don't have a good understanding of 'static utopia'
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[DocPop 1]

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Nice theory....for a static utopia. Everybody wants to think theory is going to save their ass. Well, it does relieve the responsibility of thinking on your feet. You don't have to know shit about real-life...just toe the line. We're not in a clinic. We're not taking part in clinical trials. Theory is good for a starting point in developing judgement skills...not much more.

Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....oh wait.

-Oooops.. slower than I thought...I'm not gonna get to the next turning point by 600 ft. Oh shit.....drainage ditch here I come!


Good luck with your pre-designated altitudes and turning points. Why depend on tools that are quite likely to get you in trouble?

Oh....what about those other guys? Do you stick to your pre-designated markers while trying to share the skies with others who may or may not be dead on target like you think you are.


Good luck with that too.

Use your eyes and judgement....that's what works best and in, by far and away, most situations.

The idea is to start with a canopy plan and then modify from that rather than the plan being to just make it up on the fly and see what happens. Yes, of course the plan will have to be adapted 9 times out of 10 when you're in the air but the point is to start from a well thought out plan that you can assess and modify for the next jump.

Your scenarios about what if I am too high or too low are perfectly manageable by extending/shortening the legs of the pattern or flying in more or less brakes.

There is always a need for using judgement, but being predictable is less likely to get you in trouble than making things up on the fly as well making you a more controlled, accurate canopy pilot.

It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[raveninca 0]

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Nice theory....for a static utopia. Everybody wants to think theory is going to save their ass. Well, it does relieve the responsibility of thinking on your feet. You don't have to know shit about real-life...just toe the line. We're not in a clinic. We're not taking part in clinical trials. Theory is good for a starting point in developing judgement skills...not much more.

Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....oh wait.

-Oooops.. slower than I thought...I'm not gonna get to the next turning point by 600 ft. Oh shit.....drainage ditch here I come!


Good luck with your pre-designated altitudes and turning points. Why depend on tools that are quite likely to get you in trouble?

Oh....what about those other guys? Do you stick to your pre-designated markers while trying to share the skies with others who may or may not be dead on target like you think you are.


Good luck with that too.

Use your eyes and judgement....that's what works best and in, by far and away, most situations.

The idea is to start with a canopy plan and then modify from that rather than the plan being to just make it up on the fly and see what happens. Yes, of course the plan will have to be adapted 9 times out of 10 when you're in the air but the point is to start from a well thought out plan that you can assess and modify for the next jump.

Your scenarios about what if I am too high or too low are perfectly manageable by extending/shortening the legs of the pattern or flying in more or less brakes.

There is always a need for using judgement, but being predictable is less likely to get you in trouble than making things up on the fly as well making you a more controlled, accurate canopy pilot.

It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

In addition to that you don't have to fly a "boxed" pattern, everything doesn't have to be exactly 90 degree turns. You can either cut the corner early to your next leg or curve outward on a leg to put you over your pre-planned point at the right alt. It takes a lot of practice but after about 80 jumps since my Flight-1 coarse I am getting much better accuracy in most wind conditions. All that said I am still very much a rookie and I still haven't had an off dz landing so I can't really comment on how it would work in that situation but I would like to think that I have a pretty good idea (or plan) now of what my pattern looks like from 2000ft and below in relation to the ground so it "should" just be a matter of "seeing" that pattern over whatever area of ground I may be taking for that upcoming off landing...I hope that is how it will work anyway, only time will tell.

[popsjumper 2]

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Although I agree with what you're saying, we use 3, 6, and 9 to give them a base of information to work with.

Exactly. It's training tool.

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That “feel” you describe takes time to develop.

Exactly. The sooner you develop the skill, the better off you will be.

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The most important thing to remember about the landing pattern is, if nothing else, that it’s fluid!

Again. Exactly!

I don't think people are thinking about how fluid/dynamic it is. 23 out of an Otter at landing is NOT going to be 23 pretty 1000-600-300 patterns.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Let's talk real-world....at what altitude do you become aware of what the winds are doing at 1000 ft?

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I have a pretty good idea before I even get in the plane. I use AWAS, sites like www.ryancarlton.com, etc to get a good idea of wind direction and strength. Certainly not infalible, but I'm not going in blind.

Yes, we use winds aloft charts and such....estimates at best. Ask Mike Johnston at Deland where the Winds Aloft chart is.


Ask BillVon about changing wind conditions at the DZs he jumps. He's harped on that almost hundreds of times.


But you didn't answer the question.

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I'd expect EVERY jumper to do this.

Agree with that....but then reality sinks in....

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Then, on the jump, and ride to altitude, I'm constantly assessing what I expect (from the above) with what is really happening and making appropriate adjustments.

Maybe this is something you can help us with. On the ride to altitude, how are you assessing what is really happening from inside the aircraft, protected by a fuselage, traveling 90+ knots?
(Remember, we are talking about about pattern altitudes here.)

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That said, as the poster above me mentions - it's very fluid. You have to understand and react to the environment you're in.

I guess you missed how many times I said it was dynamic, not static.

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Unfortunately it's near impossible to react when you don't have a good understanding of 'static utopia'

Hence the training tool needs. Your previous posts sounded s if you were saying the 1000-600-300 pattern was a panacea of some sort for everyone. Surely you don't think I am saying ignore it...do you?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Yes, of course the plan will have to be adapted 9 times out of 10 when you're in the air

Yep.

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but the point is to start from a well thought out plan that you can assess and modify for the next jump.

As some of us do every jump, yes.

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Your scenarios about what if I am too high or too low are perfectly manageable by extending/shortening the legs of the pattern or flying in more or less brakes.

Exactly! Now you're not turning over that big oak tree at 600 ft and over that trailer at 300.
Bingo!

And you're not turning at 600 and 300 wherever you happen to be at the time.

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There is always a need for using judgement,

Yep. You get it.

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...being predictable is less likely to get you in trouble than making things up on the fly as well making you a more controlled, accurate canopy pilot.

You seem to be stuck with the "on the fly" verbiage. Do you assume anyone is advocating anarchy here? Unless you somehow have solid prior knowledge of what you will face in the future, you're "on the fly"

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It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

Pretty fucking presumptuous of you. Go Away.

Damn, shame on me. I thought you "had it" there for a while. I see you really have no clue about me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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In addition to that you don't have to fly a "boxed" pattern, everything doesn't have to be exactly 90 degree turns. You can either cut the corner early to your next leg or curve outward on a leg to put you over your pre-planned point at the right alt. It takes a lot of practice but after about 80 jumps since my Flight-1 coarse I am getting much better accuracy in most wind conditions....

Excellent! You are developing your judgment to be able to adjust "on the fly" () That's what it's all about.

Pretty soon, you'll be landing in backyards with no problem at all.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ianmdrennan 2]

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It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

Pretty fucking presumptuous of you. Go away.

Damn, shame on me. I thought you "had it" there for a while but I see you really have no clue.

[popsjumper 2]

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DocPop isn't being presumptuous, nor do I think he's trying to insult you.

You should attend canopy coaching, especially if you're coaching students. All skydivers should, imo.

Ian

Of course he is...he has no clue...

Presumptuous: too bold or forward; taking too much for granted; showing overconfidence, arrogance, or effrontery

You, OTOH are being overly assuming. I'll not argue with you Ian.

Oh, and reality strikes again. While I agree that everyone should take a canopy course, canopy courses are not the glorified panacea everyone thinks they are.

Ask Tim Tom
( couldn't resist.)

I teach students basic canopy flight. I teach my students almost exactly the same things you do in your 101 class with the exception of sending them out farther for long-spot recovery. The only differences that I have seen is your teachings for long-spot recovery are a little different than mine and we've had that discussion already. I've been doing so since long before you started your canopy courses. My first mentors on that were a couple of people you know. My practice has shown me good techniques that have saved my butt on several occasions.

I've put up 27 posts prior to this one. Have you read them? Tell me what you disagree with...before you leap, make sure you understand what I've been saying.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Yes, altitudes should be predetermined/figured out. You adjust positioning over the ground, not pattern altitudes to deal with varying conditions.

Explain, please.
Scenario: Honking winds 1K to ground. You may define 'honking' however you like but the thread is about young jumpers...so apply it to students and low wing loadings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DocPop 1]

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Pretty fucking presumptuous of you. Go Away.

Damn, shame on me. I thought you "had it" there for a while. I see you really have no clue about me.

Maybe I did not explain myself adequately or maybe I misunderstood what you are saying, and you're right, I don't know you. However, you are not hearing what I am saying.

By planning a pattern and utilizing various techniques, it is possible to fly a predictable (i.e.. non-erratic) pattern while still adjusting for human error, wind etc and hitting your canopy checkpoints - both location and altitude.

It's not easy and it takes a lot of practice which is why most people can't be bothered to do it. For me it is an enjoyable challenge and an essential part of canopy piloting and setting up for a high performance landing.

For you to tell me that it can't be done says more about you than it does me. And just because you have been teaching students for years doesn't mean you've been teaching them the right/best way. This is not meant as a knock to you, but you are coming across as very resistant to learning/teaching modern CP techniques.

Please reconsider your attitude. It is starting to come across as an instructor version of the "mad-skillz" that I know you hate in young jumpers. It is possible that there is more than you could learn about canopy piloting.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

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Of course he is...he has no clue...

It's really quite staggering that you can make this statement, and then follow it up with this:

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Presumptuous: too bold or forward; taking too much for granted; showing overconfidence, arrogance, or effrontery

Kindly explain your solid, non-presumptuous reasons for stating that I have "no clue" about this topic.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[popsjumper 2]

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By planning a pattern and utilizing various techniques, it is possible to fly a predictable (i.e.. non-erratic) pattern while still adjusting for human error, wind etc and hitting your canopy checkpoints - both location and altitude.

That's a given. I don't recall anyone saying anything to contradict that. That's been a known for like, forever. We teach students that.

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For you to tell me that it can't be done.....

What????
Show me. Show me where anyone said that.

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And just because you have been teaching students for years doesn't mean you've been teaching them the right/best way.

True. But what do you know about that?
That's applicable to everyone. God doesn't teach skydiving.

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This is not meant as a knock to you, but you are coming across as very resistant to learning/teaching modern CP techniques.

You've already shown numerous times that you are having a hard time comprehending what people are saying. You've done it again. I've made over 28 posts here. You show little to no comprehension of what is being said. I believe you are being intentionally obtuse...hence the Go Away that you ignored.

You have a history of making nebulous accusations. Be specific. Show me what justifies you saying that. You're wrong.
That's the second time I've said that this week.

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Please reconsider your attitude. It is starting to come across as an instructor version of the "mad-skillz" that I know you hate in young jumpers.

You are correct. I'm letting ignorant statements from people who cannot comprehend what is being said get to me. Chill pill ready.

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It is possible that there is more than you could learn about canopy piloting.

True. We're always learning...hopefully.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Of course he is...he has no clue...

It's really quite staggering that you can make this statement, and then follow it up with this:

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Presumptuous: too bold or forward; taking too much for granted; showing overconfidence, arrogance, or effrontery

Kindly explain your solid, non-presumptuous reasons for stating that I have "no clue" about this topic.

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It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

Your statement was directed at me, not the topic.

You have no clue about me, what I do, where I come from, my background, history or the color my hair...see what I mean about comprehension?

I'll make a confession...I don't have 10000000 jumps nor have I been in the sport for 999999999999 years.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Tell ya' what....if you want to continue the personal discussions, let's take it to PM and leave the thread to discussion of the topic at hand, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

- 1000-600-300 (as a generality) is good for students to help get them down safely. We help protect them from much of the problems by restricting them on atmospheric conditions

- It's not good for them, nor experienced jumpers, to depend on that when they get out on their own. They must develop judgement skills that will help them in all jumpable atmospheric conditions, at new DZs and in emergency-landing situations.

Just that simple.

If you understand that, it's beyond me how anybody could argue with it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JackC1 0]

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It would be good for you to sit in on a basic canopy course where this is all explained.

Pretty fucking presumptuous of you. Go away.

Damn, shame on me. I thought you "had it" there for a while but I see you really have no clue.

DocPop isn't being presumptuous, nor do I think he's trying to insult you.

You should attend canopy coaching, especially if you're coaching students. All skydivers should, imo.

Ian

[Nigel 0]

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Let me rephrase, then.

You should move your pattern downwind to accomodate for overshooting. You should not change your altitudes. Leave your altitudes alone, so that in the air you're always flying the same pattern. Just slide the points across the ground. Good altitudes to use are 300, 600, and 900. Some use 1000, 500, and 250. I like 3/6/9 because they're the same amount of altitude loss per leg, so on no-wind days they cover the same distance across the ground.

I like the 300/600/900ft reference altitudes...I'm going to try that next jump.

When you're trying it out, note the amount of time you get in full flight from the last turn to flare.

You want at least 10 seconds - if you don't get that, you should take your altitudes up.

Understood DocPop. Thx, Nigel

[DocPop 1]

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For you to tell me that it can't be done.....

What????
Show me. Show me where anyone said that.

I'll just reply to this one request for information from you and then I am done. You stated that the system I outline would not work here:

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-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....oh wait.

-Oooops.. slower than I thought...I'm not gonna get to the next turning point by 600 ft. Oh shit.....drainage ditch here I come!


Good luck with your pre-designated altitudes and turning points. Why depend on tools that are quite likely to get you in trouble?

I can explain this to you in person, but I just can't seem to get you to understand here.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[popsjumper 2]

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^This.

Trees/forest....wake up

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I'll just reply to this one request for information from you and then I am done. You stated that the system I outline would not work here:

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-Oooops...faster than I thought! Now I have to fly upwind to adjust so I can turn at 600 ft at the right place? Oh, I could do S-turns or 360s to burn altitude....oh wait.

-Oooops.. slower than I thought...I'm not gonna get to the next turning point by 600 ft. Oh shit.....drainage ditch here I come!


Good luck with your pre-designated altitudes and turning points. Why depend on tools that are quite likely to get you in trouble?

I can explain this to you in person, but I just can't seem to get you to understand here.

You indeed may have something that I missed. I don't think so but....

I still believe you are being deliberately obtuse.

On the one hand you speak of pre-designated spots and altitudes and don't understand how this applies:

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- 1000-600-300 (as a generality) is good for students to help get them down safely. We help protect them from much of the problems by restricting them on atmospheric conditions

.....and then you said....

"Your scenarios about what if I am too high or too low are perfectly manageable by extending/shortening the legs of the pattern or flying in more or less brakes.

There is always a need for using judgement,...."

Which acknowledges the need for good judgement and agrees with what I said. Maybe you're just needing to hear that your "system" works. It's already been said that it does in a perfect world. I think you saw that and are just trolling.

Your advice about the seconds-altitude loss check is good though. I'd give it more time for the check but there you go.

Edited to add:
And here's why....ten seconds is not going to show much of a change on students altimeters. If they have an analogue one, they'll probably not be able to notice any change at all. Yes, I did notice you said "at least". YMMV

G'day, sir.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,073]

Your one warning. Stop with the personal comments.