NSEMN8R 0 #51 March 27, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe WSI rating failed to pass the BOD. Correction. It failed TWICE. So they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously? Were the results different the second time? Are the actual results posted somewhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EFS4LIFE 0 #52 March 27, 2013 QuoteQuoteSo they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously? From my understanding yes. I was not there and receives information second hand FWIW. QuoteWere the results different the second time? It failed the second time as well. I do not know the exact number of yeas and nays for each time however. Last I looked the votes were not published but that was the same day still.I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #53 March 27, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously? From my understanding yes. I was not there and receives information second hand FWIW. QuoteWere the results different the second time? It failed the second time as well. I do not know the exact number of yeas and nays for each time however. Last I looked the votes were not published but that was the same day still. http://www.uspa.org/NewsEvents/News/tabid/59/Default.aspx#32798 The quick post-meeting summary that's posted after every meeting. Detailed minutes (which I believe should include the vote tally) usually take longer to complete & make available. They're posted on this page (scroll down on the right): http://www.uspa.org/AboutUSPA/USPABoardofDirectors/tabid/140/Default.aspx"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #54 March 28, 2013 Quote I was told it was one of the members that was voting "no" on the measure that requested the secret ballot and was doing so for well intended motives, i.e. it was not a lets see if we can pass it the second time around this way; however I feel on principle a secret ballot of any kind for any reason is BS Here is my understanding of the secret ballot. It can serve atleast three purposes that I am aware of. I am not suggesting that I agree or disagree with any of them, but these are the three answers I got when I posed the question. 1) Lets say you have two camps on a close vote, yes and no sides. And through debate a no is swayed to a yes, or a yes is swayed to a no, an "open vote" in opposition of your "camp" can strain the relationship of that person with their camp. It basically allows them to vote their conscience, without damaging their work group relationship. 2) In any political venue, USPA or even Congress, people can hold grudges. If someone votes down anothers idea publicly, months or years later, the person that got voted down, may vote against that other person's proposal. Is it right? Of course not, but in the real world it can happen and while I'm not a political spinster, I do recognize that the goal of this volunteer group of BOD members is to do the right thing, so if the outcome is just, then if it takes an occassional secret ballot to reach that outcome, the greater good of the membership is still being served and while I would prefer all votes by names, I don't hold it against anyone for requesting a secret ballot. 3) Believe it or not, every so often a vote is so controversial that the person voting for or against something faces concerns/backlash in the real world that can affect them outside the realm of USPA. A harmless example would be someone suggesting a boogie to "honor" all those that voted against something they wanted or didnt want, kind of put the voters up on a public shame display, and while thats harmless, and somethiing we all sign on for as a potential ramification of this process, there is also the occassional person that wishes to do real harm in real life by calling the employer of the voter, signing them up for spam mail accounts, etc, etc, basicaly taking it out into the real world so to speak. And for anyone that doesn't remember the Dallas USPA meeting, we had an armed officer at the door for that very reason. So......occassionally, a secret ballot can be a neccessary tool. And last thought on that, rarely is the person requesting the secret ballot the one that actually wants it. Remember that before going after the person. Last thing on this before I run off to a tandem seminar. While we would love to be able to say to everyone "please vote by name" and I did request that in committee for the WS rating proposal (im only an advisor to the committee, so I didnt have a vote in committee), if we as a membership really want to see that happen, its up to us to contact our RDs and NDs and request that of them directly. So, before the next meeting, contact your RDs and the NDs you voted for, and ask them (nicely.....lol) to vote by name. In the interim, if your curious how they voted on the WS rating, or anything else, contact them directly and ask them how they voted. As for me, I voted No on the Wingsuit rating proposal by name, so it will appear in the meeting minutes, and then when a secret ballot was requested for the Coach WS proposal, I again voted No publicly by name, by using a big piece of paper to write "Tom Noonan - NO" on it, and placing it in front of the gallery so that everyone that saw it, would see what I was voting as the votes were being picked up and tallied, and then myself and a few others, had our names recorded in the minutes with our respective votes. It was an easy decision for me, I campaigned on the promise to vote by name on important issues and defend them publicly if asked to do so, and I kept that promise and will continue to keep it. At some point after PIA, I will put "key to keyboard" and write up why I voted as I did, for now, it's suffice to say, given what was presented and how it was all presented, I believed I acted in the best interest of the membership at this time.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #55 March 28, 2013 It was an easy decision for me, I campaigned on the promise to vote by name on important issues and defend them publicly if asked to do so, and I kept that promise and will continue to keep it. At some point after PIA, I will put "key to keyboard" and write up why I voted as I did, for now, it's suffice to say, given what was presented and how it was all presented, I believed I acted in the best interest of the membership at this time. Quote Whether I agree with your vote or not - I applaud your full disclosure and look forward to you publicly stating he reasoning. I don't think it's too much to ask that ALL the elected representatives be as open. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EFS4LIFE 0 #56 March 28, 2013 Tom, While I can certainly understand your reasoning for the support of having secret ballots, I do not agree with them in principle. It comes with the territory of being elected in my eyes. I guess I just love Ron Paul too much, and maybe I am delusional, but I believe ALL of our representatives should not be afraid to vote for ANY issue, and be confident enough to put their name to it. All votes should be recorded by name. It isn't about what some representatives are afraid of or feeling pressure from. It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either. It should be public knowledge (at least to association members). It is not an expensive or overly cumbersome thing to accomplish either. It is common sense. I was against the Wingsuit proposal. It failed, but the Wingsuit proposal is not what this is about. It highlighted to me the way the USPA works as I never paid such close attention previously. I created this poll and contacted the USPA with my thoughts because I don't believe the current way business is conducted should be lawful within our organization. I want to be able to review the voting records next election and make a more informed decision than I am currently able to. The majority of members can't afford to travel to the meetings and see for themselves, and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better. I am sure there would be a lot of resistance to the change, but I am simply going on the record of where I stand, and it would seem the overwhelming majority of your constituents stand with me.I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,028 #57 March 28, 2013 Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #58 March 29, 2013 Thanks Tom! Keep up the good work! I am glad to see that cooler heads prevailed on the WS issue. This good judgement on the newly seated board is very encouraging. All votes should be recorded and made available to the membership in the minutes. We have a right to know how our elected representatives vote and where they stand on the issues. Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #59 March 29, 2013 +1---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #60 March 30, 2013 Here is a really radical idea..... How about all votes are recorded and published in Parachutist magazine so the membership knows exactly where the BOD stands? USPA represents us, this secret ballot nonsense must stop.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EFS4LIFE 0 #61 March 31, 2013 ^ +1I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomNoonan 1 #62 March 31, 2013 Quote It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either. I agree that we deserve to know. But I will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world. One email to your RD and the NDs you vote for takes a matter of minutes to draft and send. If the info is that important to us, then its a small burden of our time to get the info we are looking for. Should we move to a recorded "by name" voting process? Absolutely. I would endorse such an option, but in the interim, until such a system is in place, we, the membership need to be proactive in our search for the information we seek, otherwise, we stay in idle, nothing moves forward, nothing changes. So, I would encourage anyone that wants to see recording votes by name brought up at the next BOD meeting, please email your RDs and any NDs you voted for, and ask them to put it on the agenda. While sending that email, also ask them to provide information on how they voted on the items you are interested in learning about. Quote and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better. Respectfully, I agree that it can be done better, but that process requires time to investigate, decide and (possibly) implement. In the interim, contacting every board member via email is a task that takes minutes to accomplish and will provide quick timely answers to the questions of who voted for what. Its the best process in place at the moment, so I sincerely encourage you and anyone else interested, to send that email if the information is of genuine interest.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,028 #63 March 31, 2013 Quote Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too? BUMP.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomNoonan 1 #64 March 31, 2013 Hi John My apologies, I wasn't ignoring the question, I just wanted to take a moment and attempt to convey my thought in a manner that would make sense as I hoped to convey it. With that said, with all due respect, (as I'm not the one that requested the secret ballot), I don't believe it appropriate for me to be publishing a name here on the forum. Not that the name is a big deal, it really isn't, but from a perspective of following proper channels, I think it more prudent for you to email your RD and ask them the question and then, after receiving an answer from your RD, if you feel it is in the membership's best interest to publish the name here, you are of course welcome to do so.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #65 April 1, 2013 QuoteQuote Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too? BUMP. Ask the Secretary who it was. It should be recorded in the minutes too. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EFS4LIFE 0 #66 April 3, 2013 QuoteI will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world. For one, I shouldn't have to. I should be able to look in the minutes and see for myself. Let alone the fact that obviously some members are afraid to say how they voted, otherwise there would be no "secret ballot" to begin with. So how would an email remedy this, and why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them? The digital world is a two way street and the USPA can just as easily adjust. I think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked.I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomNoonan 1 #67 April 4, 2013 QuoteI think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked. As do I. As, I said above, I agree with you and if it came to a vote, I would vote Yes, by name, for such a measure. Quoteand why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them? Maybe I'm just niave, but I can't imagine anyone lying about how they voted to you. I could see perhaps if someone didn't want to share their vote for some reason, they might say "I choose not to share my vote with you", and if that was the response you got, you could choose not to vote for them next time around. But I guess my real point is if any of us wants the info right now, as the current system is in place, we should be emailing our RDs, and the NDs we voted for and asking them directly. It takes a matter of minutes, about the same amout of time it would take to log onto uspa.org, navigate the site to the minutes and scroll through them to find the votes we're looking for. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't take that long to email a person or a group of people. I agree that we shouldn't have to do that, but as of today, before any new voting by name proposal gets put on an agenda, debated, voted on and then possibly implemented, it's the best viable option and not a very time consuming one if we want to know how our BOD members voted in this past election. So.........again, I would suggest to anyone that is curious of how their BOD members voted, or would like them to vote by name at the Summer BOD meeting, please email them and ask them to share their votes, and to vote by name next time around.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
EFS4LIFE 0 #56 March 28, 2013 Tom, While I can certainly understand your reasoning for the support of having secret ballots, I do not agree with them in principle. It comes with the territory of being elected in my eyes. I guess I just love Ron Paul too much, and maybe I am delusional, but I believe ALL of our representatives should not be afraid to vote for ANY issue, and be confident enough to put their name to it. All votes should be recorded by name. It isn't about what some representatives are afraid of or feeling pressure from. It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either. It should be public knowledge (at least to association members). It is not an expensive or overly cumbersome thing to accomplish either. It is common sense. I was against the Wingsuit proposal. It failed, but the Wingsuit proposal is not what this is about. It highlighted to me the way the USPA works as I never paid such close attention previously. I created this poll and contacted the USPA with my thoughts because I don't believe the current way business is conducted should be lawful within our organization. I want to be able to review the voting records next election and make a more informed decision than I am currently able to. The majority of members can't afford to travel to the meetings and see for themselves, and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better. I am sure there would be a lot of resistance to the change, but I am simply going on the record of where I stand, and it would seem the overwhelming majority of your constituents stand with me.I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,028 #57 March 28, 2013 Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #58 March 29, 2013 Thanks Tom! Keep up the good work! I am glad to see that cooler heads prevailed on the WS issue. This good judgement on the newly seated board is very encouraging. All votes should be recorded and made available to the membership in the minutes. We have a right to know how our elected representatives vote and where they stand on the issues. Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #59 March 29, 2013 +1---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #60 March 30, 2013 Here is a really radical idea..... How about all votes are recorded and published in Parachutist magazine so the membership knows exactly where the BOD stands? USPA represents us, this secret ballot nonsense must stop.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EFS4LIFE 0 #61 March 31, 2013 ^ +1I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #62 March 31, 2013 Quote It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either. I agree that we deserve to know. But I will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world. One email to your RD and the NDs you vote for takes a matter of minutes to draft and send. If the info is that important to us, then its a small burden of our time to get the info we are looking for. Should we move to a recorded "by name" voting process? Absolutely. I would endorse such an option, but in the interim, until such a system is in place, we, the membership need to be proactive in our search for the information we seek, otherwise, we stay in idle, nothing moves forward, nothing changes. So, I would encourage anyone that wants to see recording votes by name brought up at the next BOD meeting, please email your RDs and any NDs you voted for, and ask them to put it on the agenda. While sending that email, also ask them to provide information on how they voted on the items you are interested in learning about. Quote and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better. Respectfully, I agree that it can be done better, but that process requires time to investigate, decide and (possibly) implement. In the interim, contacting every board member via email is a task that takes minutes to accomplish and will provide quick timely answers to the questions of who voted for what. Its the best process in place at the moment, so I sincerely encourage you and anyone else interested, to send that email if the information is of genuine interest.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,028 #63 March 31, 2013 Quote Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too? BUMP.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #64 March 31, 2013 Hi John My apologies, I wasn't ignoring the question, I just wanted to take a moment and attempt to convey my thought in a manner that would make sense as I hoped to convey it. With that said, with all due respect, (as I'm not the one that requested the secret ballot), I don't believe it appropriate for me to be publishing a name here on the forum. Not that the name is a big deal, it really isn't, but from a perspective of following proper channels, I think it more prudent for you to email your RD and ask them the question and then, after receiving an answer from your RD, if you feel it is in the membership's best interest to publish the name here, you are of course welcome to do so.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #65 April 1, 2013 QuoteQuote Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too? BUMP. Ask the Secretary who it was. It should be recorded in the minutes too. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EFS4LIFE 0 #66 April 3, 2013 QuoteI will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world. For one, I shouldn't have to. I should be able to look in the minutes and see for myself. Let alone the fact that obviously some members are afraid to say how they voted, otherwise there would be no "secret ballot" to begin with. So how would an email remedy this, and why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them? The digital world is a two way street and the USPA can just as easily adjust. I think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked.I am an asshole, but I am honest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomNoonan 1 #67 April 4, 2013 QuoteI think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked. As do I. As, I said above, I agree with you and if it came to a vote, I would vote Yes, by name, for such a measure. Quoteand why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them? Maybe I'm just niave, but I can't imagine anyone lying about how they voted to you. I could see perhaps if someone didn't want to share their vote for some reason, they might say "I choose not to share my vote with you", and if that was the response you got, you could choose not to vote for them next time around. But I guess my real point is if any of us wants the info right now, as the current system is in place, we should be emailing our RDs, and the NDs we voted for and asking them directly. It takes a matter of minutes, about the same amout of time it would take to log onto uspa.org, navigate the site to the minutes and scroll through them to find the votes we're looking for. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't take that long to email a person or a group of people. I agree that we shouldn't have to do that, but as of today, before any new voting by name proposal gets put on an agenda, debated, voted on and then possibly implemented, it's the best viable option and not a very time consuming one if we want to know how our BOD members voted in this past election. So.........again, I would suggest to anyone that is curious of how their BOD members voted, or would like them to vote by name at the Summer BOD meeting, please email them and ask them to share their votes, and to vote by name next time around.Namaste, Tom Noonan www.everest-skydive.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
