robskydiv 0 #26 June 24, 2003 Hey Bill, I'm sorry you lost your friend. I agree with you about the rules. Maybe radios and an ATC would be in order and I'm not being sarcastic. Harry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #27 June 24, 2003 QuoteDon't get complacent. Two friends of mine died in a canopy collision at a DZ with an enormous landing area when only 10 were on the load. Agreed. It takes just 2 people to have a collision. When I was learning to sitfly a couple of years back with a buddy, we lost each other in the sky. We missed each other by centimetres (he flew right under me -- I had to pull up my feet to avoid his canopy) at opening time. It might be a big sky up there, but that's no guarantee you won't hit someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #28 June 24, 2003 Bill, Everyone knows that the low canopy will always snivel. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 June 24, 2003 Well, hell yeah. Last time I tried to deploy while standing on the ground my pilot chute didn't even inflate. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #30 June 25, 2003 Had to be Kolla! Remember girl........................ curiosity.............................................. Love ya! J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squirrel 0 #31 June 25, 2003 i 100% agree bill... i knew roger and it pissed me off too. jenni (my wife i married in Deland, saw you there) have our own rule. we never land where swoopers are headed. in fact, we are in better shape now after walking a bit farther back to the hanger after landing out in a clear area. see, we area increasing our leg muscles as we increase our odds of survival...hmm, now if i only could get a infomercial made... ________________________________ Where is Darwin when you need him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #32 June 25, 2003 Andy2 - Please do not take this the wrong way: You have three months in the sport. Pull higher. Float in brakes. Land last. You'll have the whole landing area to yourself, and it is more likely that someone will actually watch you land and talk to you about your landings. With three months in the sport, you really do not need to be worrying about what the guys 20 feet from each end cell are going to do on final. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airdivr 0 #33 June 26, 2003 I have to disagree with having more procedures/rules, just because I believe we should be able to deal with this situation without establishing more regulations. After discussion with various people at Roger's funeral, the consensus of opinion was that peer pressure is the right way to go. The same way we dealt with people years ago who were dangerous in freefall (10 or 20 people sounding on them the first time and the second time they couldn't get on another load) would work. All it takes is a bunch of jumpers in the loading area saying, "Sorry, I have to scratch off this load because ________ is on it and he doesn't fly a left hand pattern and is dangerous in the air, even if he's not in my group. Enough of this type of action and the dz operators will get involved (props turning while jumpers don't get into the plane, etc.). Additionally, training in canopy control is a must. I'm really not even sure if half the jumpers know what a left hand or right hand pattern even means. And each year it seems to get worse and more dangerous under canopy. I agree with Bill that skydivers continue to take safety inventions and turn them into detriments. We are relying on mechanical devices much more than ever, rather than eyes and ears. You can put your head on a swivel all you want and you're still not gonna see the guy coming from above and behind you. We need to set a traffic pattern and use peer pressure to enforce it. If someone can't or won't follow the pattern then get them off the dz. Elaine D-7863 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #34 June 26, 2003 >The same way we dealt with people years ago who were dangerous >in freefall (10 or 20 people sounding on them the first time and the > second time they couldn't get on another load) would work. No it wouldn't. Organizers can refuse to let a dangerous jumper on their load. You cannot "refuse" to let a person jump a canopy unless you're an S+TA or DZO. >"Sorry, I have to scratch off this load because ________ is on it . . . Keep in mind that most DZ's in the US still use cessnas, and therefore this only works if every single jumper at the DZ (JM's, cameramen, new jumpers and visiting jumpers included) agrees to do this. Otherwise it's easy to find 3 other people to get on the same plane with him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 June 26, 2003 QuoteKeep in mind that most DZ's in the US still use cessnas, and therefore this only works if every single jumper at the DZ (JM's, cameramen, new jumpers and visiting jumpers included) agrees to do this. Otherwise it's easy to find 3 other people to get on the same plane with him You'd be surprised how well this works when a jumper is known to be dangerous in certain types of situations. Even if only a few people bump, a load will a lot of times die. Or atleast *that* planned dive dies and the jumper finds something smaller/safer for their skillset to do.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #36 June 30, 2003 QuoteI knew somebody would bite. Booth Law #1 "The lower you pull, the longer your parachute will take to open, and the more likely it is to malfunction." Interesting, Bill, because while Law #2 does seem to be validated by evidence, this one, of course, is not. I understand what you mean to say here, and if it will get people to pull higher and safer that's nice. But it's hardly "law". I've had a few really low pulls. I think we all have. They did not, by virtue of their lowness, snivel longer or have any additional likelihood of a malfunction. Any real statistical analysis of pull altitude vs malfunction rate and snivel time will reveal this "law" to be nothing but superstitious hokum. Maybe a better phrasing, that would actually be a law, and still has some punch would be this: A low pull will turn a minor problem into a major one. And the lower you pull the more serious they become. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #37 June 30, 2003 I think he was parodying "Murphy's Law" and didn't actually mean there were any physics behind that statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #38 June 30, 2003 Quotetrue, when I first started skydiving, admittedly 3 months ago, I was suprised as hell at the lack of "rules" for air traffic. With firmer guidelines collisions would be less likely, no matter what the WL of the canopy pilot is. Im still shocked everytime I pull at 3.5k-3k (what everyone else pulls at my DZ for the most part) how crazy and hectic it is. Kinda scary in light of the recent canopy collisions. You were surprised with the rules? I was surprised with the training. 3 mo ago I took the first ground school course before a static line jump, everything was gone over very vaguely. On the cutaway, the second I "touched" the cutaway handle he said "okay you passed". After this course everything was still pretty much a mystery. In just a few hours of really shitty training they had me up on the first jump, not knowing WTF I was doing. I think the training for something like skydiving is pretty inadequate, compare this to the Army, where you train two weeks just for a static line jump. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about skydiving, where you fall at top speed from a high altitude and then decelerate, 'a little' bit more involved than some static line pulling a canopy open right away. Just a few hours and youre up in the air risking your life, that might be a reson for some of the fatalities. Right now, I know most of what I know from reading a book, watching a video, and this forum. I think if youre relying on the content you get from a dz, youre probably making a big mistake. Anybody agree with this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #39 June 30, 2003 [QUOTE]I think if youre relying on the content you get from a dz, youre probably making a big mistake. [/QUOTE] I think you get what you ask for! I was a little nervous about jumping only a few hours after taking the FJC, but asking questions kinda solved the nervousness (well, some of it!!!). So far in my limited experience, I've found the best thing to do is search out the experienced folks that are willing to take time out of their own lives to explain really beginner things to you. Theyre out there at the DZ, well, at least at mine! --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #40 June 30, 2003 QuoteQuoteCourse most planes have radios. I think skydivers could use those... sometimes.Dave Paragliders do use those, to keep from running into each other. I find it surprising that skydiving, which is much more dangerous, also seems to be a lot more lax than something like paragliding. This sport like any other sport has the potential to be a lot safer than it is seen to be, I think it just has to be bought out of the category of being a "daredevil act". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumprunner 0 #41 June 30, 2003 Quote[QUOTE]I think if youre relying on the content you get from a dz, youre probably making a big mistake. [/QUOTE] I think you get what you ask for! I was a little nervous about jumping only a few hours after taking the FJC, but asking questions kinda solved the nervousness (well, some of it!!!). So far in my limited experience, I've found the best thing to do is search out the experienced folks that are willing to take time out of their own lives to explain really beginner things to you. Theyre out there at the DZ, well, at least at mine! I was pretty much referring to the first dZ I went to, small place at Marana, AZ, when I asked them questions they would immediately become irritable about it, treating me like I was asking too many questions. Then I have Eloy telling me Marana loses all thier students to them and they are the biggest bunch of a*holes on the face of the earth. And thats where I started out, not knowing any better. You sure gotta watch where you jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #42 June 30, 2003 >Paragliders do use those, to keep from running into each other. Uh, no. They use them to communicate with their ground crew when they are far away. When there are many paragliders in close proximity, there is a pretty complex system (who's on fast beat, who's lower, who's closer in) to prevent collisions. It is much the same as skydivers, except that paragliders all have to share the same lift, so there are more often traffic problems. A radio would be a horrible replacement for your eyes. No radio in the world will keep you from running into someone you can't see, and who can't see you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumprunner 0 #43 June 30, 2003 Quote>Paragliders do use those, to keep from running into each other. Uh, no. They use them to communicate with their ground crew when they are far away. When there are many paragliders in close proximity, there is a pretty complex system (who's on fast beat, who's lower, who's closer in) to prevent collisions. It is much the same as skydivers, except that paragliders all have to share the same lift, so there are more often traffic problems. A radio would be a horrible replacement for your eyes. No radio in the world will keep you from running into someone you can't see, and who can't see you. But that doesnt mean that radios couldnt serve a very good purpose. How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #44 June 30, 2003 Quote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #45 June 30, 2003 QuoteQuote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. thats because your busy flying your canopy lisa..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Layton 0 #46 July 1, 2003 collisions are one of my greatest fears of skydiving.thats why we were taught at my dz that tracking is one of the best tools we have for safety.track track track to clean air then look wave off and pull.i jump at a cessna dz and we usually have only 4 jumpers in the air at one time and we did have a collision once and both people are ok.it can and does happen.im a light jumper flying a 175 so im always the last to land.the lower canopy has the right of way.***if you are going to be stupid you better be tough Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikeat10500 12 #47 July 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. thats because your busy flying your canopy lisa.. I sing to myself under canopy. Usually Mach 5 by PUSA. ----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #48 July 1, 2003 QuoteBill, Everyone knows that the low canopy will always snivel. Sparky Sparky- Wasn't it you that told me... "The longer you take to pack, the longer it takes to open?" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #49 July 1, 2003 QuoteThen I have Eloy telling me Marana loses all thier students to them and they are the biggest bunch of a*holes on the face of the earth Jumprunner aka stylin has assured me that this statement did not come from an instructor at SDA. So with that in mind, the above statement is not the opinion of Skydive Arizona-"Eloy" QuoteYou sure gotta watch where you jump. Too true. You are responsible for your own safety, of course I do tend to jump from 13k Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nuke 0 #50 July 1, 2003 I don't know if there are any numbers on how many of the collisions happened because the 1st pilot didn't see the second one coming. If there is could someone please enlighten me? Some kind of device that signals if you have another skydiver at less than 50 feet away could offer a way to at least be prepared for impact. I don't think such a device would be really expensive either, a small transmitter/reciever, it will probably take a few batteries to work all day if you are not doing solos all the time. There might even be possible to get the device to separate from skydiver behind you - skydiver in front of you, skydiver moving away - coming right at you but as with the numbers mentioned before somebody else is more qualified then me to answer that. Interested to se what all you others think about the idea, my 02 anyway. /M PS. I didn't do a search of the forums since I really couldn't imagine what to search for. DS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
jumprunner 0 #41 June 30, 2003 Quote[QUOTE]I think if youre relying on the content you get from a dz, youre probably making a big mistake. [/QUOTE] I think you get what you ask for! I was a little nervous about jumping only a few hours after taking the FJC, but asking questions kinda solved the nervousness (well, some of it!!!). So far in my limited experience, I've found the best thing to do is search out the experienced folks that are willing to take time out of their own lives to explain really beginner things to you. Theyre out there at the DZ, well, at least at mine! I was pretty much referring to the first dZ I went to, small place at Marana, AZ, when I asked them questions they would immediately become irritable about it, treating me like I was asking too many questions. Then I have Eloy telling me Marana loses all thier students to them and they are the biggest bunch of a*holes on the face of the earth. And thats where I started out, not knowing any better. You sure gotta watch where you jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #42 June 30, 2003 >Paragliders do use those, to keep from running into each other. Uh, no. They use them to communicate with their ground crew when they are far away. When there are many paragliders in close proximity, there is a pretty complex system (who's on fast beat, who's lower, who's closer in) to prevent collisions. It is much the same as skydivers, except that paragliders all have to share the same lift, so there are more often traffic problems. A radio would be a horrible replacement for your eyes. No radio in the world will keep you from running into someone you can't see, and who can't see you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #43 June 30, 2003 Quote>Paragliders do use those, to keep from running into each other. Uh, no. They use them to communicate with their ground crew when they are far away. When there are many paragliders in close proximity, there is a pretty complex system (who's on fast beat, who's lower, who's closer in) to prevent collisions. It is much the same as skydivers, except that paragliders all have to share the same lift, so there are more often traffic problems. A radio would be a horrible replacement for your eyes. No radio in the world will keep you from running into someone you can't see, and who can't see you. But that doesnt mean that radios couldnt serve a very good purpose. How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #44 June 30, 2003 Quote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #45 June 30, 2003 QuoteQuote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. thats because your busy flying your canopy lisa..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Layton 0 #46 July 1, 2003 collisions are one of my greatest fears of skydiving.thats why we were taught at my dz that tracking is one of the best tools we have for safety.track track track to clean air then look wave off and pull.i jump at a cessna dz and we usually have only 4 jumpers in the air at one time and we did have a collision once and both people are ok.it can and does happen.im a light jumper flying a 175 so im always the last to land.the lower canopy has the right of way.***if you are going to be stupid you better be tough Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #47 July 1, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuote How many times have you wanted to jam out to some pretty good tunes while parachuting down? Never. Too distracting. thats because your busy flying your canopy lisa.. I sing to myself under canopy. Usually Mach 5 by PUSA. ----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #48 July 1, 2003 QuoteBill, Everyone knows that the low canopy will always snivel. Sparky Sparky- Wasn't it you that told me... "The longer you take to pack, the longer it takes to open?" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #49 July 1, 2003 QuoteThen I have Eloy telling me Marana loses all thier students to them and they are the biggest bunch of a*holes on the face of the earth Jumprunner aka stylin has assured me that this statement did not come from an instructor at SDA. So with that in mind, the above statement is not the opinion of Skydive Arizona-"Eloy" QuoteYou sure gotta watch where you jump. Too true. You are responsible for your own safety, of course I do tend to jump from 13k Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuke 0 #50 July 1, 2003 I don't know if there are any numbers on how many of the collisions happened because the 1st pilot didn't see the second one coming. If there is could someone please enlighten me? Some kind of device that signals if you have another skydiver at less than 50 feet away could offer a way to at least be prepared for impact. I don't think such a device would be really expensive either, a small transmitter/reciever, it will probably take a few batteries to work all day if you are not doing solos all the time. There might even be possible to get the device to separate from skydiver behind you - skydiver in front of you, skydiver moving away - coming right at you but as with the numbers mentioned before somebody else is more qualified then me to answer that. Interested to se what all you others think about the idea, my 02 anyway. /M PS. I didn't do a search of the forums since I really couldn't imagine what to search for. DS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
