Progression

[Rachel22 0]

Just looking for some good advice. I am a student with 19 jumps and just had my first cutaway on jump 18. I was very calm seeing as I had JUST gone through my emergency procedures that morning. It was tough to "pull" the cutaway handle until on the 7th try I must have "peeled" and everyone on the ground said it looked like a flawless cutaway. I kept both cables (not even meaning too) and the main fell right in the middle of the landing area. Only thing I had to buy my rigger was a bottle of rum! So since it didnt shake me too much, I went back out for jump 19 on a different 170 and felt weird under a sabre 1 instead of a sabre 2 but did ok. I am getting psyched up for the A license check out dive. So any advice on that would be great. I also just bought a 2000 javelin with a micro raven 150 that I am having my rigger inspect on safety day. I am also going to be getting my Spectre 135 main on saturday as well. I know I will need to demo a 150 for some jumps to get from a 170 to a 150 demo and to finally my 135. I am 5'2" 105 pounds which is why I am buying the 135 because I will most likely want to stay on that for a lot of my skydiving career. My fiance hasnt been able to jump with me very much on my 25 student jumps so he is very very very excited for jump 26 and has a whole day planned for fun jumps! Only 6 more jumps :)

[yoink 321]

Firstly, congrats on saving yourself! !


A couple of things spring to mind -

First, you say 'I had just gone through my emergency procedures that morning', then say you managed to cutaway on the 7th try.

OK - advice - you haven't drilled your EPs enough - Nowhere near. Either that, or you're doing your drills wrong, neither of which is good.

Get into a hanging harness and have an instructor watch you go through your EPs. PEEL. PULL. Then repeat that motion a hundred times. Then do it a hundred times before your next jump. And a hundred times before the next one and so on.
I'm completely serious on this - it takes a lot of repetitions to drill muscle memory and you can't be fumbling 7 times on a cutaway. It's a big indicator that your training hasn't sunk in properly.

Others will probably give you advice about your canopy selection. Personally I think it's overly aggressive, and history shows that people have difficulty owning something they're not ready for and then not jumping it while they rent the sizes in between for an appropriate number of jumps.
You say 'I'll need to demo a 150 for 'some' jumps - yeah. Long enough to get COMPLETELY familiar with all the characteristics of that canopy. We're talking hundreds of jumps here - are you REALLY going to do that??

Even though you're light, the 135 will fly VERY differently to a 150 as performance isn't a linear scale with size.

I'm pleased you managed to look out for yourself, but there are bits in your post that are waving red flags to me - be aware. That's probably not the good advice you were hoping for, but it's true nontheless.

Take care!

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Im a small person too, 5'5" 125lbs, i got on a 135 early on too. They're really fun but be careful! Those 135's hurt!

[YvonneWiggers 0]

About the canopy size I just wanted to mentioned that, apart from the scales not being linear*, you should also add any extra weight you'll be wearing into the equation. Have your canopies (not just the main, also the reserve) sized for the 'worst case scenario', for example, the days where you jump with the heavy guys and take a bit of (extra) lead along.

I weigh 120 lbs myself, and downsized to a 150 at 90 jumps, and to a 135 at about 150 jumps. I never really got to know all about the 150, and looking back I might have downsized to the 135 a little too soon. I never wear any lead, but I can tell you, a 135 is a sporty canopy, and definitely not much forgiving, even at a very low wingloading! Renting a 150 while you have a 135 laying around might make you downsize (way) too soon, especially if the 150 is a 'tight fit' in your javelin. My advice would be to buy a 150 or a 170, and maybe even sell the 135 if you need the money. You can almost always sell a canopy again without losing as much money on it as renting one would have cost you (sometimes you can even make a little profit!), and there will always be a nice 135 for sale when you're ready for it. Having it laying might just trick you into making the wrong decisions.

I am no instructor, nor am I very experienced, I just know what it's like to load a relatively smaller canopy lightly, so take my advice for what it's worth. Before you make any kind of decisions, discuss it with your instructors, they can give you the most adequate advise.

* For example, a 135 with a wingloading of 1:1 will fly more aggressive than a 190 with the same wingload. If you don't know why that is, you should ask your instructors.

"So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!...

It's PINK!!!'"
- army guy after his first staticline jump

[danielcroft 2]

Good work on your cutaway, I had one on #12 where I miraculously saved my cables too.

As for your canopy choices, I think the issue that you face as a newer jumper is that you need a lot longer on your first canopies to learn how they fly than someone with more jumps. I really depends on whether you're flying your own canopy or just flaring by memory on how you were taught. That's an important distinction that I think alludes people even with several times the number jumps that you have.

There's not a lot anyone on the internet can tell you that will be genuinely applicable to your question that your local instructors couldn't tell you with a lot more accuracy. There's a lot of information that we're not privy to about you, your attitudes toward jumping and specifically flying your canopy that is critical to giving you appropriate advice.

As a general rule, you want to be proficient on your canopy before you start thinking about downsizing. You want to confirm with your instructors that they think it's appropriate and really take your canopy seriously, it's not just a ride to the ground. I'll refer you to billvon's awesome downsizing checklist, I come back to that pretty regularly as these are survival skills: http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html

Other than that, I'd agree with Yoink for the most part.

[Rachel22 0]

Thank you for some positivity! My master rigger, S & TA, and DZ owner, and radio pilot from under canopy has stated that becuase i am so light and do very well with the 170 and landings, "a 135 will be appropriate with the correct training" so i will be jumping a 150 before the 135. Thanks for all the help guys!

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[skyjumpenfool 2]

Hmm? The title of your post is Progression. However, maybe you should change the title to "Skipping Progression". Not trying to be negative. Just the vibe I'm getting.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[yoink 321]

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Thank you for some positivity! My master rigger, S & TA, and DZ owner, and radio pilot from under canopy has stated that becuase i am so light and do very well with the 170 and landings, "a 135 will be appropriate with the correct training" so i will be jumping a 150 before the 135. Thanks for all the help guys!

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Lots of people will focus on the canopy stuff, and I'm sure this thread will mainly revolve around that, (because that's what we see lots of here), but

PLEASE don't miss out on the lesson you need to take away from having to attempt your EP's 7(!) times before successfully cutting away. In a fast mal those 7 tries could easily be a thousand feet of altitude which you may not have...

[JohnMitchell 16]

What kind of problem did you have with cutting away? Was it peeling the velcro or pulling the handle?

7 tugs on the handle is WAAAY too many. Something is wrong, either the rig, your upper body strength, or the technique you're using. If you have high-speed malfunction someday, you may not be fast enough to handle it properly.

BTW, one of the biggest causes of hard pulls on any handle is pulling in the wrong direction. Since the cable housings run straight down the front of you, straight down is the direction you should pull the handle. I see too many instructors mime punching the handle away from their body, as if hitting a punching bag. That is definitely the wrong motion and very poor instruction.

[Trafficdiver 8]

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BTW, one of the biggest causes of hard pulls on any handle is pulling in the wrong direction. Since the cable housings run straight down the front of you, straight down is the direction you should pull the handle. I see too many instructors mime punching the handle away from their body, as if hitting a punching bag. That is definitely the wrong motion and very poor instruction.

Really? I was taught to punch forward. You're are the first person I've heard say pull straight down. It does make sense though, thinking about the direction of the cable housing.

[yoink 321]

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BTW, one of the biggest causes of hard pulls on any handle is pulling in the wrong direction. Since the cable housings run straight down the front of you, straight down is the direction you should pull the handle. I see too many instructors mime punching the handle away from their body, as if hitting a punching bag. That is definitely the wrong motion and very poor instruction.

Really? I was taught to punch forward. You're are the first person I've heard say pull straight down. It does make sense though, thinking about the direction of the cable housing.

You were taught wrong.

Always pull in line with the cable!

[Trafficdiver 8]

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BTW, one of the biggest causes of hard pulls on any handle is pulling in the wrong direction. Since the cable housings run straight down the front of you, straight down is the direction you should pull the handle. I see too many instructors mime punching the handle away from their body, as if hitting a punching bag. That is definitely the wrong motion and very poor instruction.

Really? I was taught to punch forward. You're are the first person I've heard say pull straight down. It does make sense though, thinking about the direction of the cable housing.

You were taught wrong.

Always pull in line with the cable!

I just went through my EP's and I guess I am pulling down much more than forward. I suppose if you punch perpendicular to your body it would bind up the cable in the housing somewhat,

[thrillstalker 0]

this is a horrible place to ask about canopy size advice. you will just get, "it's too small. " ask your real life instructors at your dz that know you and your abilities. honestly those are the only people who need to give you that type of feedback.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[JohnMitchell 16]

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You were taught wrong.

Always pull in line with the cable!

It's disheartening to me to see how many people are taught the basics incorrectly. Some instructors don't really spend too much thought on their lesson plans.

[yoink 321]

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this is a horrible place to ask about canopy size advice. you will just get, "it's too small. " ask your real life instructors at your dz that know you and your abilities. honestly those are the only people who need to give you that type of feedback.

It can be.

It can also be somewhere to get some really good, meaningful and thorough advice - if you can see it.

How about this - as a female in a sport dominated by guys, the OP is much more likely to be given leeway by a well meaning DZO or instructor. I'm not saying it's happening in this case, but it DOES happen.
A young guy with 50 jumps goes to the DZO and says 'hey, I've got a 135' - what do you think the reaction will be in 90% of cases?
However if a chick does that, well, guys (and I include myself in this) are stupid. We don't like to say no to cute girls, even when we should so they tend to be given more leniency, even when it's not in their best interests.
That sort of knowledge - knowing that people may say 'yes' to you when perhaps they shouldn't is worth having. Particularly when it comes to safety issues.

What about the discussion we could have about body size, exit weight and canopy sizing? Sure the OP is a tiny girl and may well be OK on a 135. All you hear is 'it's too small' and deduce we're all canopy nazis. She's already indicated she wants to jump with her fiancee, and it's not a stretch to imagine she'll want to jump with other people too. At her size, keeping up in freefall is going to be tough and draining, so that means piling on the lead. Uh oh. Now that conservative wing loading on the 135 may not be so conservative... so maybe it's worth rethinking the options available.

answer me this - how is suggesting that a 135 for a novice jumper may be agressive a bad thing? Do you think it will hold her skydiving career back if she doesn't get on it straight away?

My point is how dare you come on here and suggest that all advice about canopy sizing is just 'it's too small'. and is useless. There's a great deal of thought that leads to a suggestion from some posters here,

[popsjumper 2]

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Really? I was taught to punch forward.

Retrain yourself for a proper pull...peel and pull.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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this is a horrible place to ask about canopy size advice. you will just get, "it's too small. " ask your real life instructors at your dz that know you and your abilities. honestly those are the only people who need to give you that type of feedback.

Mitch...this may not be good in this case. The OP has already said that locals have said the 135 was going to be OK...all based simply on landing abilities. Note no mention of canopy controls, wind conditions, stalls prevention, emergency maneuvers, etc....in other words, no real canopy flight training prior to downsizing. Unfortunately, one one of the major, major shortcomings of way too many 'instructors'..."Ahhhhh, Go for it. You'll be OK."

What about the same issues to get to the 150?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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You were taught wrong.

Always pull in line with the cable!

It's disheartening to me to see how many people are taught the basics incorrectly. Some instructors don't really spend too much thought on their lesson plans.

Ahhhh, so you DO understand my rants on that topic.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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She's already indicated she wants to jump with her fiancee,....

Umpf...I thought you were going to carry that out.



To the OP:
Something you need to be aware of and be strong enough to avoid the problem:

Significant Others who have more experience in almost all cases will try to entice the younger jumper to participate in jumps that they are not ready for. SOs typically say, "Oh, really you are doing just great! Come go on this 10-way with me."

YOU need to control that. YOU need to be the one to say, "I'm not ready for that yet."...and stick to your guns.

This means being able to resist the urge to jump out there and get in over your head.

How do you do that? Being able to give YOURSELF and HONEST evaluation of your skills and comfort level.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Rachel22 0]

Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.

[BillyVance 34]

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Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.

Relax, Rachel. Don't take this bunch too seriously. You do have to have a thick skin to handle their criticism. Always listen to your instructors in person.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Andy9o8 2]

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Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.

So in other words, he's decided to be your thought police censor, and you're dutifully obeying, like a compliant member of the congregation. This might as well be a religion thread for all the difference it makes. Well, actually, it will make a difference, for all the other novices, especially female ones, who will read this thread.

I don't post much in the skydiving threads, and when I do, I rarely go out on a limb and express disgust. This will be an excpetion.

[yoink 321]

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Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.

*Sigh.

Well this entire thread was a waste of effort. Awesome.

If your fiancee disagrees with anything I've posted, tell him to feel free to post here or PM me if he doesn't want to do it in public. I'm sure he thinks he's looking out for you, but just burying your head in the sand doesn't make some of the advice (that you asked for) any less valid or true.

Stay safe.

[rifleman 70]

Please forgive me but IMO, and I'm probably wrong, it sounds like your SO's objection to you posting on here is that the sound advice you're getting contradicts what he's telling you.

TBH it shouldn't be "WE know what WE need to do" it should be "I got this advice from my instructor and he told me how I need to go about achieving this in a safe manner" - it has nothing to do with your SO's needs or wants.

As a student and a noob, my instructors have told me that based on my performance I should be OK flying a 190 but because I know that my finances and my wife's health don't allow me to jump as often as I'd like to, I've opted to fly a 210 main/220 reserve simply because it will be a little more forgiving in a crisis.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[Andy9o8 2]

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Well this was a lot to wake up to. My fiance had a long talk about everyones post. He has asked me to stop posting because it does nothing but get me upset and we know what we need to do and we know what my instructors need me to do. Good luck and blue skies to everyone.

*Sigh.

Well this entire thread was a waste of effort. Awesome.

If your fiancee disagrees with anything I've posted, tell him to feel free to post here or PM me if he doesn't want to do it in public. I'm sure he thinks he's looking out for you, but just burying your head in the sand doesn't make some of the advice (that you asked for) any less valid or true.

Stay safe.

All this presumes he grants her permission to read it. Maybe he has one of those "parent's filters" installed on her computer and TV.