dpreguy 14
"unstowed line goes straight down the side of the rig... riser to the base of the container...."
Got a picture of that? "S" fold that excess line separately on each side? Two coils -one on either side? Can you show?
2 to two and a half feet. 24 to 30 inches of line is a lot of loose line. A photo would be good, not just leave it to each parachutist to invent how to leave it laying in there.
Got a picture of that? "S" fold that excess line separately on each side? Two coils -one on either side? Can you show?
2 to two and a half feet. 24 to 30 inches of line is a lot of loose line. A photo would be good, not just leave it to each parachutist to invent how to leave it laying in there.
While bags and line excess seem to be thoroughly covered by answers so far, I want to share a packing technique that helped me reduce the occurrence of line twists to zero (well, zero in 300-400 jumps since I've started using this technique - nothing is "absolute zero", of course). Note that this technique does its magic mostly for wingsuit and tracking jumps and for canopies with ZP that starts getting gritty after 200+ jumps, especially on the tail end of the center cell which you grab when you cocoon the canopy. However, I believe it is good for no-forward-movement deployments and new ZP as well.
At some point, I started getting long hesitations when flying wingsuit and sometimes even when tracking. I would feel the bag leaving my back, then my shoulders would get a gentle tug, and then... nothing. Nothing for long enough that I'd start worrying if it's going to open at all. (What seemed to be "eternity" during deployment later measured to "just" 1-2s on video, but still, this is not a normal deployment.) I would continue flying while trailing something behind my back. Then it would open, eventually - but bad. As a result of these hesitations, I was getting line twists quite often and sometimes even hard openings.
I have pretty much standard arsenal of wingsuit-specific gear choices on my rig: 9ft bridle, 30-inch PC, dynamic corners. Nevertheless - horrendous hesitations. Pulling from full flight or slowing down - same thing: bad openings, frequent line twists.
So after being thoroughly puzzled by trying everything imaginable and nothing working, I finally started investigating. Mounted camera facing rear and started hunting. Finally, I caught it red-handed: the canopy gets to line stretch (at which point I would feel a slight tug on the shoulders) - no problem there - but then it stays there in cocoon, fully closed, not inflating, with cocoon just dancing in the wind, PC collapsed and not stretching the lines anymore, cocoon oftentimes rotating, and lines dancing in the burble like crazy. A-ha! No wonder that line twists would ensue after such a dance. Moreover, the slider, staying inside the cocoon, sometimes would start moving from wild shaking and as a result, a hard opening would occur.
So I realized that due to angled extraction and canopy somewhat sagging between the PC and the rig, the cocoon has a good chance to stay closed for a while, especially if the ZP fabric on the cocoon's apex and the twisted "lock" is no longer slippery and springy. The air hits the bottom, flat part of the cocoon at a small angle, the apex gets little pressure and the cocoon simply has no reason to fall apart - until it is shaken enough that is does. But then it's too late for good opening.
So I started packing in such a way as to leave a large opening in cocoon's apex - and voila, the problem instantly disappeared. No hesitations, no line twists, no hard openings. Basically, you simply wrap the packjob by the tail not on top of the lines, but a few inches lower. The slider is half-exposed this way. On linestretch, the first thing the air "sees" are 2 things: slider and a large "mouth" of the cocoon which opens the cocoon instantly. Slider catches air immediately, gets pressed against the stops and ensures good, staged opening. Quickly exposed nose firmly sets the opening direction, and ensured immediate, firm coupling between you and the canopy, allowing you to easily follow the off-heading opening, if that happened due to bad body position and packjob. The initial tug is now satisfyingly firm and the whole opening sequence is shorter (initiates faster), but not hard. The technique shaves off probably 100-200ft of unnecessary soft "falling into pillows" part of deployment which just robs you of altitude for no real benefit.
I believe that tightly closed cocoon is not good for no-forward-movement openings as well. Most of the time, it opens fast, but sometimes the tight apex prevents air from entering, with unpredictable openings as a result.
I've never seen anyone packing like this, but then again, nothing is new under the sun, maybe someone else came to the same technique independently.
Anyway, just wanted to share something that helped me eliminate the problem which kept me puzzled - and twisting - for quite a while.
Hope this helps.
Yuri
At some point, I started getting long hesitations when flying wingsuit and sometimes even when tracking. I would feel the bag leaving my back, then my shoulders would get a gentle tug, and then... nothing. Nothing for long enough that I'd start worrying if it's going to open at all. (What seemed to be "eternity" during deployment later measured to "just" 1-2s on video, but still, this is not a normal deployment.) I would continue flying while trailing something behind my back. Then it would open, eventually - but bad. As a result of these hesitations, I was getting line twists quite often and sometimes even hard openings.
I have pretty much standard arsenal of wingsuit-specific gear choices on my rig: 9ft bridle, 30-inch PC, dynamic corners. Nevertheless - horrendous hesitations. Pulling from full flight or slowing down - same thing: bad openings, frequent line twists.
So after being thoroughly puzzled by trying everything imaginable and nothing working, I finally started investigating. Mounted camera facing rear and started hunting. Finally, I caught it red-handed: the canopy gets to line stretch (at which point I would feel a slight tug on the shoulders) - no problem there - but then it stays there in cocoon, fully closed, not inflating, with cocoon just dancing in the wind, PC collapsed and not stretching the lines anymore, cocoon oftentimes rotating, and lines dancing in the burble like crazy. A-ha! No wonder that line twists would ensue after such a dance. Moreover, the slider, staying inside the cocoon, sometimes would start moving from wild shaking and as a result, a hard opening would occur.
So I realized that due to angled extraction and canopy somewhat sagging between the PC and the rig, the cocoon has a good chance to stay closed for a while, especially if the ZP fabric on the cocoon's apex and the twisted "lock" is no longer slippery and springy. The air hits the bottom, flat part of the cocoon at a small angle, the apex gets little pressure and the cocoon simply has no reason to fall apart - until it is shaken enough that is does. But then it's too late for good opening.
So I started packing in such a way as to leave a large opening in cocoon's apex - and voila, the problem instantly disappeared. No hesitations, no line twists, no hard openings. Basically, you simply wrap the packjob by the tail not on top of the lines, but a few inches lower. The slider is half-exposed this way. On linestretch, the first thing the air "sees" are 2 things: slider and a large "mouth" of the cocoon which opens the cocoon instantly. Slider catches air immediately, gets pressed against the stops and ensures good, staged opening. Quickly exposed nose firmly sets the opening direction, and ensured immediate, firm coupling between you and the canopy, allowing you to easily follow the off-heading opening, if that happened due to bad body position and packjob. The initial tug is now satisfyingly firm and the whole opening sequence is shorter (initiates faster), but not hard. The technique shaves off probably 100-200ft of unnecessary soft "falling into pillows" part of deployment which just robs you of altitude for no real benefit.
I believe that tightly closed cocoon is not good for no-forward-movement openings as well. Most of the time, it opens fast, but sometimes the tight apex prevents air from entering, with unpredictable openings as a result.
I've never seen anyone packing like this, but then again, nothing is new under the sun, maybe someone else came to the same technique independently.
Anyway, just wanted to share something that helped me eliminate the problem which kept me puzzled - and twisting - for quite a while.
Hope this helps.
Yuri
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
Wouldn't it be easier to just wrap the tail around the lines loosely instead of tightly?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteWouldn't it be easier to just wrap the tail around the lines loosely instead of tightly?
I tried it before settling on the more radical approach - it didn't work.
In angled deployment, the extracted cocoon is sagging below the relative wind line drawn from your shoulders, due to its weight. As a result, relative wind is hitting the cocoon not "heads on", but at some angle. The pressure of wind in this case presses the tail of the center cell, which is wrapping the packjob, against the rest of the packjob, making it "stick". A little hole in the apex of a loosely wrapped cone is not enough to overcome this.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
primetime 18
I have not seen this packing method before (slider exposed) but it makes sense to me. There would also be less wear and tear on the center cell from the slider grommets during extraction. However, I think it would be more appropriate for WS and tracking dives, as the openings might be too "brisk" when deploying without forward motion. Can you post a picture of this pack job with the d-bag closed? I would like to see how you position the slider. Thanks Yuri.
I'll take a pic next time I jump, but there's no difference in the rest of the pack process. You fold the cocoon and put it in the bag exact same way as you usually do. Of course, always make sure the slider grommets are pushed all the way up the lines.
Here is a 3.5yo video which helped me first realize what the problem is and how to solve it. It shows "only" a 0.7s (22 frames at 30fps) cocoon hesitation, but I've experienced some 2-3x longer hesitations as well.
If you watch frame-by-frame, you'll see that the cocoon stays closed and is dancing, morphing and rotating in the air, resulting in line twists even with good body position. Sometimes, hard openings would occur due to slider grommets sliding down the lines under the wildly dancing cocoon.
Note that I never wrap the cocoon tightly - you can see that the top part of the cocoon falls apart in 2-3 frames, while the bottom part (facing earth) stays "glued" to the packjob for the whole 22 frames due to pressure of airflow hitting the pack job at an angle.
Yellow is the center cell; orange is adjacent cells; red is side cells and the slider.
Here is a 3.5yo video which helped me first realize what the problem is and how to solve it. It shows "only" a 0.7s (22 frames at 30fps) cocoon hesitation, but I've experienced some 2-3x longer hesitations as well.
If you watch frame-by-frame, you'll see that the cocoon stays closed and is dancing, morphing and rotating in the air, resulting in line twists even with good body position. Sometimes, hard openings would occur due to slider grommets sliding down the lines under the wildly dancing cocoon.
Note that I never wrap the cocoon tightly - you can see that the top part of the cocoon falls apart in 2-3 frames, while the bottom part (facing earth) stays "glued" to the packjob for the whole 22 frames due to pressure of airflow hitting the pack job at an angle.
Yellow is the center cell; orange is adjacent cells; red is side cells and the slider.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio
I certainly understand your reluctance with the semi stowless bag. I was in your same shoes when the three ring cutaway system first came out.
But think about this: in all my years of skydiving I can count on one hand the people who always change out ALL their rubber bands when ever one breaks.
The rest of us change them as they break and some of us even hope for that one-last-deployment while we gingerly put the line stow in to keep that band from breaking while we're packing. yeah admit it - you've done it - we've all done it.
My point is: our stow bands are never in equal strength. some are new - some have been on our bag since the beginning of the season or even longer.
Which means you're in less control not more.
I shoot video and have dozens of pictures of out of sequence line deployments - both tandem and sport rigs. I have witnessed and filmed bag dance from strong bands combined with weak bands. Some hang on longer that others. Many of these pictures I have scare the crap out of me and those jumpers I was filming.
I'm convinced many off heading openings and line twists are due to the bag turning during the line deployment not the canopy.
The bands are only there to keep our lines in place until we need them - which is during deployment.
The semi-stowless bag keeps the lines in place and then allows them to play out in an orderly, straight and equal tension fashion. The video I've shot of those deployments are always very clean.
When I first saw the three ring cutaway system (before it was actually TSOd and in use) I predicted that some day, everyone would have them on their rigs.
I also predict that some day- everyone will be using some sort of stowless bag.
Before you make your final decision about the semi stowless bag, please talk to someone who is knowlegable. I think you may just change your mind.
PM me if you like. I have much more than I can post.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
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