Big ways are getting EXPENSIVE

[billvon 3,006]

>Just curious. For jumpers that end up in the third pile do they get a refund or is
>that a total sunk cost if they get kicked off of jumps due to performance?

The people in the third pile generally don't get invited to begin with. If it's an "everyone is welcome" camp they often get moved to the smaller dives that they can do safely. If it's an invite-only dive, and they did somehow get invited (an organizer misjudged their capabilities) generally they get benched and someone else takes their slot. In less critical dives (i.e. a semi serious big way) they often get part of their money refunded - not the ferry fees but the jump ticket, for example.

If it's a real record attempt, the person replacing them is often a professional skydiver who can't afford to pay for the jumps, so the person who gets cut often ends up paying for their replacement to jump.

[airtwardo 7]

If it's a real record attempt, the person replacing them is often a professional skydiver who can't afford to pay for the jumps, so the person who gets cut often ends up paying for their replacement to jump.

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That would certainly make one truly access their own skills prior to 'buying in'.


OTOH...I remember an old-guy record attempt some years back when a guy was cut for what sure looked to be questionable reasons at best...only to have his paid slot filled by a person who was not only 'broke' but arrived late in the event and jumped ahead of a few others on the bench.

I guess ya pay your money and ya take your chances sometimes.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[mirage62 0]

Generally if kicked off for performance issue you get some sort of refund for the jumps you didn't make provided you handle being cut w some grace. Of course your flight, hotel ect rent covered. :)

I believe safety violations are handled the same way.

Bill may know, but I'm trying to recall someone being kicked off an event for a safety violation. I've seen people taken off for a jump or two.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[AndyBoyd 0]

My 2 cents on this. I'm not a big-way guy. To me, 18 or 20 people in the sky is alot. But I have done a little 4-way, not enough to get all that good, but enough to know that skydiving at a serious level is expensive. I've spent as much as the OP is describing on 4-way camps. I've done some Airspeed 4-way camps that have been very pricey, but worth every penny in terms of the uptick in my skill level. I don't do 4-way anymore mainly because of the cost (although there are other reasons). I guess what I'm trying to say is if you just want to hang out at the DZ, make 5 or 6 jumps and have a few beers a few times a month, skydiving is not too expensive for most folks. But if you want to get serious about it in any discipline, you've got to pay up. And look, the free market will sort this stuff out. If people won't pay for the big-way or 4-way or whatever-way camps, they won't exist.

[billvon 3,006]

>OTOH...I remember an old-guy record attempt some years back when a guy was cut
>for what sure looked to be questionable reasons at best...only to have his paid slot
>filled by a person who was not only 'broke' but arrived late in the event and jumped
>ahead of a few others on the bench.

Yes, and there are often stories like that. During the 300 way, for example, on "Black Thursday" a bunch of people got cut for reasons ranging from major to minor, and were replaced with members of the Russian 8-way national team who had just shown up. They effectively cut ahead of many of the people on the bench. What was going through the organizer's minds, I think (from thirdhand stories later) was "man, we're having the same problems over and over, we're running out of time, and the people on the bench are the people who didn't quite make the cut the first time. But we have these people who are some of the best skydivers in Russia who we know are going to perform. Do we go with the bench and risk not completing it or go with the known-good skydivers?"

That upset a lot of people - but we got the record on the second to last day. So that strategy worked for them. Was that unfair to the people on the bench? Yes. Would it have been more unfair to the other 292 people to not get the record? Maybe.

One of the things that has changed since then is the makeup of the bench. Often bigways now have very high level skydivers on the bench who just can't be there for the whole event and/or can't afford the entire cost, so they trade off maybe not being on the jump for the chance to jump for free (or for less money) on a record at the last minute.

[kallend 2,027]

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>OTOH...I remember an old-guy record attempt some years back when a guy was cut
>for what sure looked to be questionable reasons at best...only to have his paid slot
>filled by a person who was not only 'broke' but arrived late in the event and jumped
>ahead of a few others on the bench.

Yes, and there are often stories like that. During the 300 way, for example, on "Black Thursday" a bunch of people got cut for reasons ranging from major to minor, and were replaced with members of the Russian 8-way national team who had just shown up. They effectively cut ahead of many of the people on the bench. What was going through the organizer's minds, I think (from thirdhand stories later) was "man, we're having the same problems over and over, we're running out of time, and the people on the bench are the people who didn't quite make the cut the first time. But we have these people who are some of the best skydivers in Russia who we know are going to perform. Do we go with the bench and risk not completing it or go with the known-good skydivers?"

That upset a lot of people - but we got the record on the second to last day. So that strategy worked for them. Was that unfair to the people on the bench? Yes. Would it have been more unfair to the other 292 people to not get the record? Maybe.

One of the things that has changed since then is the makeup of the bench. Often bigways now have very high level skydivers on the bench who just can't be there for the whole event and/or can't afford the entire cost, so they trade off maybe not being on the jump for the chance to jump for free (or for less money) on a record at the last minute.

It would be nice if this policy were to be declared up front to the rank-and-file paying jumpers, rather than having to be inferred.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Joellercoaster 6]

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It would be nice if this policy were to be declared up front to the rank-and-file paying jumpers, rather than having to be inferred.

Disclaimer: I am not a bigway person. Nor am I a long-term skydiver, I've only been in the sport about 7 years (so the 300-way is before my time).

But, even from the outside, it seemed that the policy of having very strong people on the bench and using them to shore up weakness, possibly by paying their slots, was an obvious one and seemed to be in place at the bigways I heard about.

Having the bench be the "nearly" jumpers just never seemed like something you would do, if you wanted your big jumps to work.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[billvon 3,006]

>It would be nice if this policy were to be declared up front to the rank-and-file paying
>jumpers, rather than having to be inferred.

On the last record I was on it was declared up front.

[mirage62 0]

Politics and big ways…..
I’ve heard a million times “Big ways are too political for me” The “Politics of big ways” is simple. Get the record make the money. Without getting records any big way organizer or group (P3) will lose favor and the amount of people willing to pay will go do and the money revenue stream goes away.

The 300 way was a very delicate and not to smoothly handled example of that. “Fair” only goes so far. Was it fair to by-pass the bench? Sure you’ve got the talent that is ready to jump. Was it fair to cut people for very minor issues? Maybe not, was it fair to not refund completely people that were on the bench who were by –passed, depends on the original agreement.

The politics of big ways are never clear. You can argue almost any decision the organizers makes.

I had a slot for the 400 way…..then didn’t have a slot for the 400 way……then had a slot (and went). It drove me NUTS for years trying to figure out what had happen. In the end I was told that there was a fear that I couldn’t handle the pressure of a world record attempt. This was after doing over a 100 hundred ways (that use to be the gold standard) being invited back to every big way event I had been on – and never not once was I spoken to at the camps for a fear that the pressure wb to much.

My point is when you are breaking into big ways don’t believe everything you hear about things being only about the record. People that go to tons of camps will get a shot before someone of the same skill level who doesn’t- in fact they can be slightly weaker and get a shot. You can’t fault the camp organizers for that, they get paid for camps they are going to reward the people that reward them. BUT NOT TO the point of not getting the record.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little