Speed of flare

[Mike111 0]

I was reading in the BPA CH manual that a slow controlled flare in which the toggles reach the last position as your feet touch the ground is the way to go.

However ,not to be stubborn or inentionally differnt,I always did a sudden and quick yank of a flare just before I hit the ground - a lot faster flare than some others and have landed on my feet most of the time.

Is this dangerous? does it cause problems Im unawre of?

Thanks for the advice.

[phoenixlpr 0]

It could be lot easier to discuss this some knows you, seen you on landing like your instructor.

[Mike111 0]

thanks, I will do, I just thought it could help if I had some ideas to go to him with.

Cause Im only a newbie so have no real idea of what to really say accurately apart from the generalisation in my post.

[Scoop 0]

In another thread I mentioned how I had difficulty with my landings. I didnt have a problem on my first few jumps. Stood up most of them (quick sudden full flare), but as soon as I read my CH1/CH2 manual and attempted 2 stage flares, its all gone to rat shit. Havent stood one up since. I think there must be an art to it but someone did say the big student canopies dont respond well to long drawn out flares (but they might just be saying that to make me feel better). Either way, when one is next available and I got the cash I shall be signing up for one of Chris Lynch's Wingtips seminars

[mr2mk1g 10]

Well used F111 canopies as you have probably jumped so far often respond better to that kind of flare. In the long run, a slow controlled flare is the way to go... just now though?... well that will depend.

The important thing to do is to flare how your instructor tells you to. They know your kit, weight, wind, experience etc. They should be the one's to tell you how to flare right now. It may be they talk to you about changing the way you've been shown to do it as your skydiving progresses.

...'course you could just be doing it wrong. Your instructor's the only one who's going to know though.

[bob.dino 1]

2-stage flares and F111 canopies don't always mix that well. Have a word with your instructors.

[Brumby 0]

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Well used F111 canopies as you have probably jumped so far often respond better to that kind of flare. In the long run, a slow controlled flare is the way to go... just now though?... well that will depend.

I totally agree with this statement. The canopy your no doubt jumping wilb b de-tuned and very dosile. Once you have more experience and go onto ZP & smaller canopys you will completely notice the difference in how you are meant to flare. The fist ZP canopy i jumped was a Sabre 210 & i flard just like i did on a Manta 280 & i went back up about 10 feet

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[gus 1]

Try and get some of your landings videod and have your instructor watch them with you, it can be a massive help. It should also be pretty obvious from the vid whether your flare technique is appropriate for that canopy.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[darkwing 5]

There are too many variables and too little information in your note. As you move to higher performance canopies, you will find the method you describe will put you in the hospital. Some students alread jump the aforementioned higher performance canopies, so they should listen to their instructors.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[mattjw916 2]

Think about it like this: when you drive different kinds of cars do you apply different amounts of force to the brake pedals based on feedback from the vehicle or the same amount regardless of whether it's a 5000lb truck or a 2700 sports car? Same goes for parachutes. The only way to figure out the "proper flare" technique for a particular parachute is to jump it (a lot) and discover what works the best. Even then things like wind, density altitude, canopy design, loading, etc all affect the way you flare it.

If I used the technique you listed with my canopy it would probably climb about 15 feet into the air, stall, and drop me on my back.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Hooknswoop 19]

Flaring is like applying the brakes in a car to bring it to a stop at a stop-sign. There are a lot of variables that determine how much, how quick. You couldn't tell someone exactly how much brake to apply, starting exactly when, and you can't tell someone exactly how to flare.

Derek

[Superman32 0]

You're at a stage where you will be renting sportier higher performance canopies than the one you are flying now. Just be sure to discuss the flare on a ZP canopy, before jumping it. It may even be wise to get a radio again.
Other than that, practice flaring up high

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[sundevil777 102]

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I always did a sudden and quick yank of a flare just before I hit the ground

Wings do not respond well to a sudden change in angle of attack. A large canopy will be more tolerant of this.

If the alternative technique, sometimes called a 'two-stage' flare, is done with sudden/quick yanks and a substantial pause between the stages, the results can also be poor.

Think about being smooth and dynamic. Watch others land and then emulate.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,006]

>Wings do not respond well to a sudden change in angle of attack.

Right, but when you are about to touch down, often you don't want them to respond well. An 'ideal' landing (in terms of minimum vertical/horizontal speed) involves getting right to the stall point as your feet touch the ground, then rapidly pulling all the way down. This stalls the wing and puts it much more behind you. Not much in the way of lift, but since you are touching down, that doesn't matter. However, there IS a huge increase in drag, and this can help a bit if you need it (i.e. you've landed downwind and need to slow down.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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In another thread I mentioned how I had difficulty with my landings. I didnt have a problem on my first few jumps. Stood up most of them (quick sudden full flare), but as soon as I read my CH1/CH2 manual and attempted 2 stage flares, its all gone to rat shit. Havent stood one up since. I think there must be an art to it but someone did say the big student canopies dont respond well to long drawn out flares

Don't think of the two stages as pull down a bit, then pull down more. Think of it as 1) plane out the canopy, 2) keep flying flat as long as you can. There are many flare inputs that get this job done. Practice and perhaps an observer's input get you there.

And yeah, some parachutes (usually old) don't want to play that game well, are easier to land with one continuous flaring motion. My triathlon is much slower to plane out than most others I've used. I need to initiate a bit higher or I plow into the ground. And it requires more toggle pull. Do this on a pilot and I pop up.

[Scrumpot 1]

Are you actually recommending a dynamic STALL on a downwind landing, Bill?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,006]

> Are you actually recommending a dynamic STALL on a downwind landing, Bill?

Basically yes. (Since you have leveled out, it's not really a dynamic stall, but that's the basic idea.) Same as an airplane landing. A perfect landing has the stall warning horn going off as the wheels touch the ground. That means landing at the lowest possible speed.

As soon as you touch down, then drag is your friend; it will slow you down and might make the difference between running like mad and going down on your face. Burying the toggles can help increase that drag. The stall part doesn't much matter any more since your feet are on the ground (or within inches.) Also, since you have already wrung every bit of lift out of the canopy, there's no danger of popping up again.

One reason to try this occasionally is that many canopies have lift left low in the stroke. The classic case is going from a Sabre 1 to a Pilot. A jumper might find himself suprised that bottoming out the toggles gives him more lift. Once he does this, he can use that lift to slow down even more before touching down.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Also, since you have already wrung every bit of lift out of the canopy, there's no danger of popping up again.

One reason to try this occasionally is that many canopies have lift left low in the stroke. The classic case is going from a Sabre 1 to a Pilot. A jumper might find himself suprised that bottoming out the toggles gives him more lift. Once he does this, he can use that lift to slow down even more before touching down.

Exactly what I was thinking, and precisely why I was asking, Bill. I was noticing though too, that the original poster is a 13 jump TOTAL student, and many of the replies are also from (relatively) equally low time canopy pilots. Having the wherewithall to adequately perform that for them, I would think would probably be a lot to ask though (and reasonably expect), don't you? Maybe though with F-111 it could be "gotten away" with, but I would be concerned in just recommending doing this, without further qualification to it, that it would instead potentially result the 1st time they really needed it and tried it, in them potentially popping up, THEN STALLING, then being dumped (potentially HARD) on their arses, which could make matters worse. Would you agree?

How many under 20, 50, or even 100 jump jumpers do you know that really know and are capable of recognizing that they have already "wrung every bit of lift" out of their canopies (and at what given point) that they can? Absolutely that is the prerequisite to that final and dramatic stroke of "burying your toggles" under the scenario given too. I just think that recommendation probably needed to be better clarified for the audience, before just blanketly "recommended", and qualified too, to the type of canopy being flown - which I don't think we know, and should not just assume either as being the same in ALL cases, and being applied the same either to just "all audiences".

Thanks for helping to clarify that, even for me then too Bill!

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Mike111 0]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

ive noted down all what I need to know and will go over it all with the instructors.

Ive learnt that, the flare seems to do fine for now, but in the long run a slower flare will be necessary to avoid injury as canopies I use get smaller.

Thanks all for the advice again, and ive definitely learnt a lot.

Thanks (b)

Mike

[billvon 3,006]

> that it would instead potentially result the 1st time they really needed it
>and tried it, in them potentially popping up, THEN STALLING, then being
>dumped (potentially HARD) on their arses, which could make matters
>worse. Would you agree?

Definitely. Which is one reason I'm very much in favor of really wringing out each size of canopy before you downsize. If you bury the toggles on a Navigator 280 - no issue; you just get a flare. A Sabre 230 might pop you up a little, depending on your weight. A Pilot 188 will definitely get you a few feet high, then drop you softly. As long as you learn on canopies like this, popping up won't be much of an issue.

Where it IS an issue is where a jumper downsizes rapidly to a Sabre2 150 without wringing out the larger canopies. If he THEN bottoms out the toggles, then he could see what you describe - a lot of lift, a stall and a landing on your butt. But once he has that experience on larger canopies he will know how to manage that "late flare" power, and runs less of a risk of being suprised by a lot of lift.

[borg2050 0]

I had the same problem as you until I downsized and started renting non-student gear. Only then, did the slow flare make sense to me. I haven't had a bad landing since AFF. Do what feels right.

[AFFI 0]

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will go over it all with the instructors.

Bravo!