popsjumper 2 #1 November 21, 2005 Packing is important. There's more to it than fold it up, roll it up and stuff it in the bag. -------------- One line from the outer locking stow wrapped around most of the lines in the middle locking stow, preventing them from unstowing, causing a baglock. The first outer locking stow did release, and some of the canopy and slider fabric came out of the bag.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #2 November 21, 2005 Thank you very much for posting this. But mil-spec rubber bands are supposed to break in that scenario Actually, it doesn't shock me. Your incident reinforces my opinion that tube stows are clearly better for the middle locking stows. The old guy with the big beard thinks so too. I make my own tube stows really cheap, and make them the length that I need from the bulk silicone tubing you can find in the fishing/sporting goods section of any department store (really cheap per foot). Use a pair of needlenose pliers to turn one end over about 5mm. Insert the closed pliers into the other end and open the pliers to expand the tubing. Now take a pair of hemostats (sp?) or similar instrument used for other purposes to grab the turned over end of the tubing and insert it into the opened end. Carefully slide the tubing off the pliers and you're done. No need to glue anything. I always take a minute to really check the position of the stow group ends after it is in the main tray. This is one of those things that a packer will pretty much never do. When my sons are packing for me, I can make them do it right, until then, I'll avoid some mals.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #3 November 21, 2005 QuoteActually, it doesn't shock me. Your incident reinforces my opinion that tube stows are clearly better for the middle locking stows. The old guy with the big beard thinks so too. Can you educate me why that is, in relation to this incident??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #4 November 21, 2005 My second malfunction was a bag lock - since my reserve worked flawlwssly it was a FANTISTIC experience and lots of fun! I am one of the wierdos that actually like malfunctions, getting out of them while staying altitude aware or having to chop and deploy reserve while remeining altitude aware is a good skill to remain current. Since I have not had a malfunction requiring EP's for 5 years and 2800 skydives I train more than a lot... Congrats on dealing with your bag lock correctly... MAke it a great day..Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
borg2050 0 #5 November 21, 2005 So that's why the packers at my DZ are always telling me, "Neatness counts." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #6 November 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteActually, it doesn't shock me. Your incident reinforces my opinion that tube stows are clearly better for the middle locking stows. The old guy with the big beard thinks so too. Can you educate me why that is, in relation to this incident??? Plenty of bag locks happen with mil-spec bands, but the fact that they do typically break easy is a damn good reason NOT to use them for locking stows. The locking stows are often under a lot of tension even before the bag is accelerated off your back. If your locking stows break at the wrong time you have bag dump and a likely explosive opening. I think that a good many explosive openings are due to locking stows breaking at the wrong time. I would rather deal with a high speed bag lock than an explosive opening that injures me and destroys my canopy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #7 November 21, 2005 This is why the terms 'inner locking stow' and 'outer locking stow' shouldn't exist. A three or four grommet bag requires you to be very careful with the locking stows to keep them side-by-side. When the stack on top of each other, you run the risk of the problem you had. If you look at the design of the bag, the grommets all line up, and in turn, the locking stows will line up (which is not a good thing). This is the perfect case for the two grommet bag. Gotta love the two grommet bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 November 21, 2005 Quote.... Congrats on dealing with your bag lock correctly... Whoa! Thanks anyway but this was not my mal...someone else had this and we took a pic of it... I'm still too young to get complacent about packing...I am still very anal about it! (not to say that shit doesn't happen anyway)My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #9 November 21, 2005 Quote This is why the terms 'inner locking stow' and 'outer locking stow' shouldn't exist. A three or four grommet bag requires you to be very careful with the locking stows to keep them side-by-side. When the stack on top of each other, you run the risk of the problem you had. If you look at the design of the bag, the grommets all line up, and in turn, the locking stows will line up (which is not a good thing). This is the perfect case for the two grommet bag. Gotta love the two grommet bag. is there some advantage to the 3 or 4 grommet bag? Why did manufacturers start using them in place of 2 grommet bags? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 November 21, 2005 Quoteis there some advantage to the 3 or 4 grommet bag? Why did manufacturers start using them in place of 2 grommet bags? I have wondered the same thing, and never come up with an answer. Before I knew any better, I bought a container with a two grommet bag, and it worked great. Then I started packing containers with three or four grommets, and realized how much more I liked the two grommets bags. In all fairness, there are a ton of three and four grommet bags out there, most likely more than two grommet bags, and they seem to work well. I just see them as an additional risk. However slight the risk may be, that would all be irrelevant to me looking up at a baglock (and the subsequent high-speed reserve deployment). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #11 November 21, 2005 >Your incident reinforces my opinion that tube stows are clearly better > for the middle locking stows. The old guy with the big beard thinks > so too. Tube stows are good devices, but in cases like this they increase the odds of not clearing such a problem. Most rubber bands will break if they become part of a line snag issue during deployment; this will allow the canopy to at least clear the bag and attempt to begin deployment. Most tube stows will not break, resulting in a bag lock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #12 November 21, 2005 >I just see them as an additional risk. Why do you see a rubber band through a side grommet as a greater risk than a rubber band on the side of a deployment bag? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #13 November 21, 2005 QuoteWhy do you see a rubber band through a side grommet as a greater risk than a rubber band on the side of a deployment bag? In the case of 3 or 4 grommet bags, the locking stows are inline with each other (side to side). Due to this, the inner locking stows are required to have other stows and line passing right next to them. This opens the door for the stows to possibly loop around each other (like this incident). With a 2 grommet bag, none of the stows needs to have any other stows or line anywhere near it. If done properly, a 2 grommet bag, will have a clear and visible path the lines take as they are stowed along the top of the bag. To take that one step further, when I place my bag into the container, I grip it so that my fingers are holding the stows tight and in place as I place it into the pack tray. This keeps everything where I put it, as well as helps to prevent any entanglements with the excess line in the bottom of the container. Again, this has not proven to be a big problem for the most part, but it doesn't seem to be any harder to do it my way, so I do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #14 November 21, 2005 Someone I know had a bag lock malfunction at 13,000 feet (clear and pull from altitude). Fearing he would never find his main if he chopped it so high he decided to ride it down to a lower altitude so he could be able to find his main after cutting away. Around 8,000 feet the main opened violently and broke his back! This was several years back and he still jumps today but had quite a layoff to heal and medical bills that cost much more than a new main would have. Just something to think to consider…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 November 21, 2005 What could cause that violent opening? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #16 November 21, 2005 QuoteWhat could cause that violent opening? I am certain that individuals with more knowledge than I can enlighten you inquiry with much more accuracy that I but I will share what little I think I understand. Some schools of thought suggest that when a bag lock stands the skydiver into a vertical orientation you loose the drag of your body and may exceed freefall velocity. Kind of like deploying while in a stand position, or any other position that will accelerate the skydiver beyond terminal. I have personally had an opening so hard I did not jump for a month! Whiplash, hurt back – it was very painful and you can hear the sound of the canopy opening on the video, it sounds like a cannon went off and I was in a stable belly to earth body position when it happened. Additionally I know a skydiver who deployed n his belly and his canopy opened so hard that it broke his femur and actually bent and misshaped his articulated hip rings. So hard openings do happen and when you are acclerated beyond terminal velocity (120) or in poor body position you increase you chances as well AND sometimes shit just happens. Perhaps someone with more knowledge and insight can enlighten us?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #17 November 21, 2005 QuoteWhat could cause that violent opening? The bag probably had enough drag to stand him up, so when the bag-lock cleared he had been in a stand for a while. Something similar happened to me a few weeks ago but I had only been stood up for a couple of seconds when it cleared. Didn't break my back, but it hurt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #18 November 22, 2005 aside from the high speed that could build up in the stand, the clearing of the bag lock may not have been very clean. In the initial post where the bag lock held, he mentioned fabric coming out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #19 November 22, 2005 A bag lock plays on my mind all the time for some reason and i've been told to throw my throw away if it happens. I've been told that this most likely wont deploy the chute. Is this practice just to get more drag for a more successful cut-away? Also what are the chances of the parachute coming out the bag when you do throw out your PC? Andy1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #20 November 22, 2005 QuoteA bag lock plays on my mind all the time for some reason and i've been told to throw my throw away if it happens. I've been told that this most likely wont deploy the chute. Is this practice just to get more drag for a more successful cut-away? Also what are the chances of the parachute coming out the bag when you do throw out your PC? Andy I think you're referring to a horseshoe mal. You'd throw your PC so that the main doesn't hang up when/if you have to cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #21 November 22, 2005 QuoteBut mil-spec rubber bands are supposed to break in that scenario Actually, it doesn't shock me. Your incident reinforces my opinion that tube stows are clearly better for the middle locking stows. The old guy with the big beard thinks so too. AMEN and thank you.....Exactly what I've been saying for a while. It makes me laugh when they say that rubber bands will break. It all comes down to packing and a bit of dumb luck in there a bit too. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #22 November 22, 2005 QuoteIt makes me laugh when they say that rubber bands will break. Yeah, If you pack ....., but they might not in deployment. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #23 November 23, 2005 QuoteA bag lock plays on my mind all the time for some reason and i've been told to throw my throw away if it happens. I've been told that this most likely wont deploy the chute. Is this practice just to get more drag for a more successful cut-away? Also what are the chances of the parachute coming out the bag when you do throw out your PC? Andy I suggest that your mistake in the use of the term 'baglock', and the casual use of 'for some reason' means that you need a SERIOUS refresher course. You should know what it is and what to do about it and why it works. Please, make sure you review 'baglock' and 'horseshoe' and other malfunctions with your instructors. Don't just have them describe it - look at pictures, and then go demonstrate with real gear. Make sure you know. Know thy gear.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 November 23, 2005 Andy...please go talk to your instructors about mals and EPs....please?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #25 November 23, 2005 Andy, was this a chop (your or someone else's)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
