Preparing to camera fly

[Lindenwood 0]

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If your goal is honestly about safety, you'd have a much different attitude than what you're displaying.

My goal was to question why this particular area of safety advice is consistently delivered so much more negatively than nearly every other aspect of safety . Questioning the approach and completely disregarding the underlying belief are entirely different.

And I do wholeheartedly believe that the risks of wearing a camera after a good discussion are definitely lower than the risks of incorrectly doing many other standard aspects of skydiving. However, the approach to solving those other problems seems so much more personable and positive than the approach to educating new jumpers about cameras. Compare reactions to the idea of newer jumpers using cameras, and reactions to newer jumpers doing other dangerous stuff that newer jumpers tend to do (like messy packing, improper tracking, pulling a little low to get that last manuever or dock, bouncing off each other on exit, etc). The former is consistently so much more negative that it makes one wonder about some exceptional aversion to it.

Some of the reactions just make it seem as if a newer jumper with a camera is as taboo and inevitably deadly as someone trying hook turns straight out of training. Compared to those reactions, you are exactly right that I am downplaying the risks.

Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?

*By this, I mean someone explained the snag hazards and helped recomment some safer mounts and orientations.

**And again, by this, I mean someone spent even just 5 minutes giving them an appreciation for how cameras can be distracting and how to avoid that.

Weeeee!

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I'm new a camera flyer (a year or so) doing 4 way so I'll take a stab at this one

"My DZ requires a B license (which I have), and I know that USPA recommends a C license to fly camera. I'm really eager to hear any advice you may have that goes beyond 'get your C license'. "

Get the C license first and get used to jumping with people doing RW until you can fly reasonably well (meaning that you can go and do what you want without having to think about it).

Gear? Learn to fly first then worry about gear.. from my experience gear entanglements although serious are really the least of your worries during a skydive...

things like premature deployments or someone coming in hot and taking you out .. keeping track of who is where until the formation is built.. being in position to get the shot and not block anyone from getting to their slot.. The list goes on and on.. then add wings which is whole different flying experience...

There is so much I learned the hard way and much I've learned from experience and most of it to be things that were never even considered when I got into camera..

Last but not least as much as you try to tell yourself "ill just turn the camera on and forget" .. it doesn't work that way.. just my $0.02 and nowhere near as valuable as most of the previous replies I'm sure.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[gearless_chris 1]

Here's one of my camera stories from before I knew how dangerous it was.

Skydive Fort Wayne is the 182 dropzone I started at, and at the time of this story the only other place I had jumped at was the Richmond boogie. I had maybe 175 jumps, so that means around 40 of those were "just wearing a camera to record my jumps" jumps. Larry, Brad, and I, had this great idea for a 3 way that would look cool on video. We were going to build an open accordion with me in the middle, but on my back. I went out on the step facing the rear of the plane, gave the other two dudes a count, left, and they dove down to me. That was the plan anyway. So there I was, waiting for them to dock on me (they were pretty close too), when I remembered we didn't go all the way up, we had only went to 5,000 feet (give or take a couple hundred). I immediately rolled over to my belly, pooped my pants, then pulled. The other two apparently had lost altitude awareness also. They got turned enough so they weren't facing each other and they pulled. It was a good thing this was a 182 dropzone, the spot was perfect, we had opened right over the landing area. I was the highest because I pulled first, and I was jumping a Monarch 215 (just like an original Sabre), Larry was just a little below me with his 155 Monarch, and Brad was the lowest with his 169 Safire 2. When we got back to the hangar I looked at my Neptune to see the opening altitude. It's a good thing none of us had an AAD at the time, we probably would've all had two out situations to deal with. I forget the exit altitude exactly, I think it was 5,300'. We had 24 seconds of freefall with an opening altitude of 900 feet.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[davelepka 4]

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When I received packing advice, they approached me in the manner I said was better: "here is what you are doing wrong. Here is how you can do it better."

Well, for staters when it comes to flying a camera with low jump numbers, the correct advice would be not to do it.

Packing is not a good comparison because a pack job is required for every skydive, and a camera is not. Packing is also something that is commonly practiced by new jumpers, and is a requirement for obtaining an A license. No skydive requitres a camera, and no skydiver is ever required to fly a camera.

Let me try and say this the same way I've said it three times already - the problem here is your attitude toward the sound, friendly advice you did recieve.

You did not like what you heard, and so you ignored the sound, friendly advice that was given to you, and insisted that your thought process was correct. In responding this way to sound, friendly advice, you put yourself forth as an asshole. It shouldn't be a surprise to you then, when people treat you or talk to you like you're an asshole. (I'm not saying that you are one, just that you come across as one, and in turn are treated like one)

[Lindenwood 0]

Oh, and Id absolutely agree that a coached jump with a brief and debrief is ten times better than footage itself without discussion. I definitely agree that trying to learn something yourself is anywhere near as effective as doing it with a professional. For example, I am a pretty competitive shooter and started off self-taught, but improved significantly with a few short private sessions with a professional. Because of that, anyone who asks me about gun advice also gets a recommendation for professional instruction.

All I meant to say is that a fun jump with crappy video of yourself from other jumpers' POV still provides more opportunity for constructive feedback than just their non-professional verbal ireport of what happened.

Weeeee!

[Lindenwood 0]

Dave, those are all actually very reasonable points :).

Weeeee!

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I was and probably still am that guy on some points Linden like you are being now..

The biggest point you are missing in all of this... Stop talking and read.. listen more than speak. It will get you far in this sport and its taken me 5 years to begin to figure it out. I'm not telling you to shut up or go away.. I'm saying take the advice given and run with it, stop trying to validate points.. just listen to the people.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[monkycndo 0]

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Here's what you're doing wrong: You're not listening.

Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

I just asked why the approach to correcting or minimizing these camera-related risks is so drastically different than the much more positive and extremely effective initial delivery chosen for every other aspect of skydiving advice?

What you did say was,

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The better option is to accept how the newer crowd wants to enjoy the sport, and use your experience and wisdom to educate the new jumpers of the risks

So, let me see if I get your point.

You feel that the experienced old farts with many more jumps than these inexperienced jumpers should fall in line with the "newer crowd" and just disregard why the SIM has the list of things that a jumper should have prior to jumping a camera. And these experienced and wise jumpers should actually condone or even assist the newer crowd bypass these steps even though there is plenty of evidence doing so is a less than smart idea.

How did I do?

Yes, methodology does make a difference in training/educating. Assisting someone to improve is almost always received well and appreciated. Not nearly so much when being told they shouldn't do something that other people can. But if you step back and look at it from the old fart's perspective, after gently telling the umteeth member of the "newer crowd" about the SIM and that putting a camera on their head at XX jumps is not a sound idea, and basically being told "hey old fart, I know what I am doing. I just turn it on and forget about it, I only use it to document my jumps", said antiques get tired and might use a different approach.

I have been training and coaching for a few years myself, in both skydiving and work. I am not above learning from anyone, no matter their limited experience level, if they can give me a new method of getting the point across to someone. So I ask a favor. Could you assist me with a way to help this "newer crowd" understand that the SIM does actually apply to them? Because using a soothing voice to explain, yet, once again, that they don't fully grasp that they don't know what they don't know sure the hell doesn't seem to be working.

I'm all ears.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[Scrumpot 1]

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Seeing even 5 seconds of crappy footage of yourself from another silly newb jumper still llustrates a more concrete picture of potential areas of improvement for most than the longest discussion. That goes doubly so when the person wearing the camera shouldn't be paying enough attention you to note every detail of your position and orientation.

That statement is so incorrect, that it is (practically) laughable. Yet, you espouse it here as if it is fact. It is not, and this assertion is, well - just plain, simply wrong. Others I see since this posting, have already (at least tried to) explain it to you, but you clearly do not seem willing, or receptive, to listen.

You may not take this the right way, but ...I sincerely hope that you are in reality here - actually nothing but a troll. In which case I will say bravo. You have at least trolled well.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[rhanold 0]

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Specifically what, exactly, did I say was incorrect? I never said cameras weren't a potential distraction. I never said there weren't potential entanglement risks. I never even once said or even implied that those risks do not apply to me.

This strikes me as a little vague. If I may ask some clarifying questions:

Does the above statement mean you agree that cameras are a distraction, that they are an entanglement risk, and that these risks do apply to you?

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I have been training and coaching for a few years myself, in both skydiving and work. I am not above learning from anyone, no matter their limited experience level, if they can give me a new method of getting the point across to someone. So I ask a favor. Could you assist me with a way to help this "newer crowd" understand that the SIM does actually apply to them? Because using a soothing voice to explain, yet, once again, that they don't fully grasp that they don't know what they don't know sure the hell doesn't seem to be working.

I'm all ears.


+1

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[sinjin 0]

lindenwood meet sangi. good luck

dont let life pass you by

[excaza 1]

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Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?

I would absolutely disagree. This is a very intellectually dishonest argument. There is no fuzzy logic going on here, 'less' dangerous is still dangerous, and a low experienced jumper gains nothing from the increased risk.

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**And again, by this, I mean someone spent even just 5 minutes giving them an appreciation for how cameras can be distracting and how to avoid that.

Talking at people is not going to make the camera less distracting. You stick a camera on them and they're going to fly differently. You can't magic experience onto someone, no matter how hard you try.

[davelepka 4]

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Would you disagree that a new jumper with a carefully set-up camera* and an instilled appreciation for the secondary nature of the camera to the skydive** is less dangerous than a newer jumper trying to hook turn, free fly, pull low, or do larger group dives?

Ok, now let's move back to the issue at hand. I'll make a comparison that most people old enough to skydive can relate to.

Let's consider texting and driving. It's an issue that's popular in the media these days for obvious reasons, texting is a distraction to a driver, much in the same way that a camera can be a distraction to a skydiver.

So let's be realistic, we all know there are 'some' people who are capable of texting and driving with no real loss in safety. Of course the number of people who are actually capable of doing this safely, and the number of people who 'think' they can do it safely are two very different things, but that's another story.

Would your guess as to who could possible safely text and drive include a 16 year old (or really any driver with less than a year or two on the road)? Let's say you had to make a guess one way or the other, and then send someone into traffic while they were texting, would you place your bet on a a new driver, or on a more seasoned driver?

Let's even imagine that you have a young driver and an 'old fart'. The young driver is going to be much more familiar with texting and the phone in general, while the 'old fart' is going to be more familiar with driving, so if you have to 'pick your poison', which would you prefer, a good driver trying to text, or a good texter trying to drive? (That last comparison is a poor example, but it's a poor example in my favor. Even an older jumper not as familiar with cameras is not the same as an older driver not familiar with texting because working a camera for skydiving involves one sequence of operations to power up and activate the camera, where tetxing requires different operations with each message).

Either way, you can see my point. The skydiving is the more dangerous part of the activity, so first you become a good, safe, experienced skydiver, THEN you add a camera to the mix. Knowing how to work the camera ahead of time, or even being trained how to jump with the camera does not chnage the fact that the skydive is the damgerous part, and does not make the skydive any less dynamic or risky.

In any case, the whole notion of being able to trained to skydive with a camera is dependant on the trainee already being a good, safe, and experienced skydiver. Just like I can't teach to to text and drive if you don't already know how to drive (meaning you're an accomplished driver, ready to add tasks to your driving 'workload'), you can't reasonably expect to teach someone to skydive with a camera unless they already know how to skydive.

[billvon 2,989]

>They saw me doing something that could be dangerous. Their first approach was to
>point out things I was or could end up doing wrong, and offer ways to make it safer /
>better.

What did they do after you spent an hour complaining that you really were doing it right, and they were attacking you, and they don't understand modern skydivers, and all your friends do it the same way? After you explained that they should just accept how new jumpers pack and not be assholes about it.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Hahahaha!!! Well played.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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All I meant to say is that a fun jump with crappy video of yourself from other jumpers' POV still provides more opportunity for constructive feedback than just their non-professional verbal ireport of what happened.

We've all seen that video... sky, ground, sky, ground, sky, ground. Not a lot to learn from there?

Or, find an experienced camera flyer and ask him/her along on your next jump. Most will be happy to come along. I even try to do this on my coin when possible. They'll capture footage you can learn from and you'll be proud to post on YouTube.
Take this opportunity to ask this "experienced" camera flyer about your future flying a camera. My guess is, you'll once again have an opportunity to learn. When you have the experience to handle camera flying, start out slow and seek out more help.

When I started jumping camera, I sought out a guy with over 10,000 camera jumps. I bugged him with questions for over a year. I still seek opportunities to learn from these people. You should do the same, but I'd highly recommend you leave the attitude at home.

I hope this advice was touchy-feely enough for you.

Oh, and the packing analogy…. Layout and start packing your reserve parachute and see what kind of advice you get. But, be warned, it will NOT be “TOUCHY-FEELY”.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Lindenwood 0]

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Does the above statement mean you agree that cameras are a distraction, that they are an entanglement risk, and that these risks do apply to you?

Yup! Like I said, objectively questioning the approach and compleltely disregarding the sentiment are two entirely different things.

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Helping new jumpers understand those things before they turn into big issues is how skydivers make it past 20 jumps in the first place.

I wonder how many thousand jumpers in the world have made it past 20 jumps?.

I wonder who helped them get there?.

No doubt some of the arrogant old farts who post on here have done their share.

That was exactly my point.



I think the texting while driving example is pretty good, though having a radio while driving might be more accurate in terms of how much attention it does (or doesn't) require, no?

And I think where I was originally going was that skydiving itself isn't a requirement: we only do it for the enjoyment. We find ways to mitigate the risks, but we still have all decided that our enjoyment outweighs these risks. I suppose it can be argued that adding a few risks to the million we already have can fall anywhere on the spectrum from incredibly stupid to just another day in extreme sports. It seems the issue is defining the manageability of any added risks, and that can vary widely depending on both the attempted activity and the individual's skill, experience, and mindset.


And Bill, like I said, I have asked more questions and been more receptive to advice than easily 99% of jumpers out there. But, I am sure you imagine me as some know-it all hotshot, spouting off at everything that disrupts my dream of being the next GoPro Hero, and there is probably nothing I could say in the internet to change that. Still, maybe we'll meet in person some day, and I'd imagine we'll get along just fine ;) .

Weeeee!

[yoink 321]

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I think the texting while driving example is pretty good, though having a radio while driving might be more accurate in terms of how much attention it does (or doesn't) require, no?

Agggh!... NO! Why do you seem to have this absolute need to correct everyone, even on subjects you know nothing about? It's irritating as hell.

Try to get this into your head, because you're driving people nuts (You've even made BillVon hand out an internet bollocking.. I don't think I've EVER seen that before) - You have ZERO idea of how much attention wearing a camera takes. None. Zilch. Zip.
Any judgement you may have on it is simply made up.

You're taking advice from people who have decades worth of time in the sport and going 'OK, I see what you're saying but I think..."
and it doesn't matter what you think at this point. You have no knowledge that's worth basing a judgement on because you don't have the experience, and the sooner you start to understand that exceptionally simple fact, the safer you'll be.

Let me ask you this. If you saw a low-time jumper at your dropzone who was approached by an extremely experienced swooper who said 'Hey dude. Your flying is really sketchy. You're going to kill someone if you don't back off some,' and the newer jumper replied 'Thanks, but I think I'll be fine. I know my limits', would you think that's a good answer?

Would you want to be in the air or on the plane with someone who's demonstrating that attitude? After all, it might be you they take out...

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And Bill, like I said, I have asked more questions and been more receptive to advice than easily 99% of jumpers out there.

Asking questions of experienced people to further your knowledge is great! It should help you to have a long and safe skydiving career.
Asking questions and then discounting the answers because you don't agree (despite your lack of knowledge on the subject) is displaying stupendous arrogance and is a pointless exercise in self justification.
Don't kid yourself - asking questions is only useful if you do something with the answers...

[theonlyski 8]

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Oh, and the packing analogy…. Layout and start packing your reserve parachute and see what kind of advice you get. But, be warned, it will NOT be “TOUCHY-FEELY”.

I'd watch just to see them struggle. Maybe I'll even point out all the things they're doing wrong or that could kill them.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[ridestrong 1]

[replyI was thankful once I did start jumping camera around 300 skydives when I realized how complicated it is and how much it adds to the skydive.

[Mr_Polite 0]

There really isn't anything that complicated about jumping a camera. Some people on here get all worked up when a 100 jump wonder straps one on. The 200 rule really doesn't apply across the board.

[waveoff5500 0]

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The Contour has a laser pointer that shows you that the camera is turned

the gopro is more "friends eyes'" friendly though.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[waveoff5500 0]

dude....you have 19 jumps, youre not even qualified to sign a log book yet let alone give reasonable advice about something in which you have no experience. now focus more on learning how to change a closing loop and what happens when you stick your legs out, than telling people with hundreds or thousands more jumps than you what the proper practice should be.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[yoink 321]

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There really isn't anything that complicated about jumping a camera. Some people on here get all worked up when a 100 jump wonder straps one on. The 200 rule really doesn't apply across the board.

MAYBE there are exceptions... there usually are to any situation. The problem is that once you've made one exception, everyone thinks that they're one. That's why posts or even opinions from experienced jumpers like yours are both profoundly unhelpful, and profoundly ignorant of skydiving as a larger community. You set a precedent that you dont' give a shit about defending and maybe several months from now some newbie DGIT will come across your post and use it as justification for doing something they're not ready for, and they'll get in trouble.

Rules, or guidelines if you prefer, have to be set for the lowest denominator - the commonly least competent person. Or are you OK with a few people a year killing themselves and others because they were jumping a camera before they were ready?
What's the number you're comfortable with?

How about this? We try to change it for 2 years - a trial period. Anyone over 50 jumps can wear one, and you can tell me in 2 years time if you think the benefit has been worth the cost...

Fortunately, this thread has moved beyond a simple camera issue, and is (in my opinion) far more valuable to a new jumper as a lesson on how NOT to solicit advice.