BrianSGermain 1 #26 October 8, 2012 I find that larger pilotchutes are helpful on low speed deployments, and as a canopy course director, I find myself deploying subterminal quite often. I don't find that my Sensei openable harder at terminal as a result, surprisingly.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #27 October 8, 2012 Brian, how many jumps do you get out of those F111 pilot chutes before they need replacing?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #28 October 9, 2012 QuoteBrian, how many jumps do you get out of those F111 pilot chutes before they need replacing? 1-2000 jumps. I have pushed it further without problem, and have extended the life of the PC significantly by spraying it with food grade silicone. Works with F-111 canopies as well!Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #29 October 9, 2012 Quote I find that larger pilotchutes are helpful on low speed deployments, and as a canopy course director, I find myself deploying subterminal quite often. I don't find that my Sensei openable harder at terminal as a result, surprisingly. I hadn’t thought about how many H&P’s you do. Dah You are fortunate that a PC that large doesn’t increase the snatch force on your Sensei considering how light it is. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #30 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuote I find that larger pilotchutes are helpful on low speed deployments, and as a canopy course director, I find myself deploying subterminal quite often. I don't find that my Sensei openable harder at terminal as a result, surprisingly. I hadn’t thought about how many H&P’s you do. Dah You are fortunate that a PC that large doesn’t increase the snatch force on your Sensei considering how light it is. Sparky I had great openings on my Samurai and Jedei as well, despite using large pilotchutes. Perhaps the correlation is not what we thought. "Openable": a new word invented by my iPhone Spell-Checker. Whoever wrote the code for these devices obviously has a devious sense of humor.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctrph8 0 #31 October 9, 2012 Quotehas anyone tried this method with a Infinity rig. I called them but they didnt know about it and said i was welcome to try it at my own risk. I packed one on Sunday that way. It works just fine. Pretty much it is the same closing sequence for all of these containers. There are a few exceptions but in general it is the same across the board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctrph8 0 #32 October 9, 2012 Quote Interesting observation. I'm going to have a longer chat with the local rigger. He doesn't like that method of pilot chute packing due to a potential for a hard pull. Until this weekend I used to pack the.way you recommend. I love the discussions when they get to trading off between hard choices - makes you think. Brian's Response: Hard pull? I have been packing my pilotchutes this way for more than twenty five years, and I have never had a hard pull. I even use oversized F-111 pilotchutes due to a high frequency of hop-n-pops. Further, I have never heard of anyone having a hard a hard pull from this packing method. You mentioned that you have been packing this way. Have you ever experienced a hard pull from this method? Anyone? I say, always go with your gut. If your instincts have been telling you to pack this way, keep doing it. If you have a hard pull, let me know. Unless you have a cordura pouch, your risks of a hard pull are very low regardless of how you pack, due to the elasticity of the spandex. Don't let others dissuade you from what your gut is telling you, ever. Even if you are wrong, at least you are honoring your instincts. My 2 cents... I have a theory about one of the ways the hard pull fears got started. When I was a beginning packer I was packing for a guy who had pull out rigs. They were really tight. I had a pull out at the time but the container had lots of room in it so I had not really thought much about this. One day I packed him a total. When he got down we figured out that I did not leave him enough slack in the bridle to actually extract the pin. In my rig it didn't matter because my pack jobs were not as tight and allowed for movement... or I just managed to pack him the perfect storm. Either way, it was a lesson learned. Fast forward to today's discussion. In the method we are talking about, the bridle looks a bit like the pull out bridles but the mechanism is entirely different. The pull is from above and there is never a chance that my scenario could happen. My suspicion is that many of the fears we are seeing are from people who learned good info about how to effectively pack pull outs but trying to apply it to the throw out system... or more likely, applying the lesson to the wrong scenario because it looks a little like what we remembered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #33 October 9, 2012 No, the discusion I had was specific to pilot chute packing and had nothing to do with bridle routing at the time. It is difficult to describe, but the rigger 'demonstrated' why he felt my current method might result in a hard pull. I intend to video his demonstration and alternative method for discussion at some point.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luis 0 #34 October 9, 2012 Quote Have you ever experienced a hard pull from this method? Anyone? ... I have! Twice actually. Years ago, on a brand new Mirage G3, standard F111 PC (whatever size it was on Mirage back then). Both times pulled using two hands - didn't know that was possible before The pouch was tight and maybe I didn't pay enough attention when packing. Anyway, it never happened again, and I still use your packing method for over 2000 jumps ...the deltoids machine at the local gym must have helped as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #35 October 9, 2012 QuoteI was using a 24" ZP on a 245 Sharpchuter and having great openings. No delays on hop-n-pops? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #36 October 9, 2012 QuoteNo, the discusion I had was specific to pilot chute packing and had nothing to do with bridle routing at the time. It is difficult to describe, but the rigger 'demonstrated' why he felt my current method might result in a hard pull. I intend to video his demonstration and alternative method for discussion at some point.i'd be interested in seeing that too as he is also my rigger and i have been using Brian method for near 10 years, and advocating it as a method to reduce hard pulls.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #37 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo, the discusion I had was specific to pilot chute packing and had nothing to do with bridle routing at the time. It is difficult to describe, but the rigger 'demonstrated' why he felt my current method might result in a hard pull. I intend to video his demonstration and alternative method for discussion at some point.i'd be interested in seeing that too as he is also my rigger and i have been using Brian method for near 10 years, and advocating it as a method to reduce hard pulls. If you're at the dz saturday, we can do the video :) that way Andy will also be available for questions.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #38 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteStandard racer closing method for twenty plus years :) exactly so don't need to change the way I close mine...but I pack for others so will look to close this way if they are OK with it. thanks Brian excellent post as usual. I pack for others as well, including rental and student gear. I personally use the Germain method for packing my pilot chute. I have packed the bridal both out the top and out the bottom. I try to remember to ask, as I will pack any way the customer wants, but it is a little confusing to be switching back and forth a lot."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #39 October 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteI was using a 24" ZP on a 245 Sharpchuter and having great openings. No delays on hop-n-pops? Used it on a whole bunch of demos, H&P. No problem. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #40 October 10, 2012 I look forward to the video. I am always interested in hearin feedback of all kinds. Thank you for the follow up. BriInstructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #41 October 14, 2012 QuoteQuoteBrian that seems a little big for such small canopies. I was using a 24" ZP on a 245 Sharpchuter and having great openings. Sparky QuoteI even use oversized F-111 pilotchutes due to a high frequency of hop-n-pops. I should also point out that I have noticed that F-111 pilotchutes give me more consistent openings overall, and since they have more friction, they are less likely to slip out of the pocket and give me a premature deployment. Zero P is slicker than snot on a glass doorknob.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #42 October 14, 2012 QuoteI should also point out that I have noticed that F-111 pilotchutes give me more consistent openings overall. Please define "more consistent". What exactly do you mean? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #43 October 14, 2012 By "more consistent", I mean more on heading, fewer linestwists, and more consistent snatch force and bag lift. The ZP pilotchutes seem to oscillate more since they do not leak any air. An apex vent stabilizes a round canopy, so it is possible that the pores in the fabric have a similar effect.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #44 October 16, 2012 We are capable of complex execution when we move slowly and consciously, but when we rush we tend to do the most practiced version of our procedures, right or wrong. When there are multiple possibilities, we must move slow enough to remain in the present moment and think throughout the action. Slow is smart.Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
llloyd 0 #45 October 16, 2012 I tried this method this past weekend and I like it. It raised a couple of eyebrows during flight line checks but at least that shows that my fellow jumpers aren't doing things on auto pilot. It also lets my pin flap sit a little cleaner over the top of the pin (Teardrop Superfly) which has to be a good thing. Converted. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #46 October 16, 2012 QuoteWe are capable of complex execution when we move slowly and consciously, but when we rush we tend to do the most practiced version of our procedures, right or wrong. When there are multiple possibilities, we must move slow enough to remain in the present moment and think throughout the action. Slow is smart. I'm going to re-ask a question I tried to ask earlier, but either I didn't ask it right or nobody responded. Which rigs have a manufacturer's instructions to route the bridle under the lower flap? Is it mandatory or an alternate approved method? Vector III does, I know, as an alternate closing method. Parachutes de France apparently recommends that procedure, I've never seen one of their rigs. What other manufacturers?"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #47 October 16, 2012 QuoteWhat other manufacturers? Parachute Labs on their Racer series"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #48 October 17, 2012 no one has a "mandatory" packing method as far as i knowYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #49 October 17, 2012 enjoyed your vid, exellent presentation. kind of hard for me to follow as my closing thoughts for 20 yrs. 1. pilot chute belongs inside main container along with excess bridle- 2. straight pin & positive pulleustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #50 October 17, 2012 Quoteno one has a "mandatory" packing method as far as i know And yet, if it's not in their manual or any subsequent documentation, it's not an approved method.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
