Tracking Suit - Palms Up or Palms Down

[LiborJanicek 0]

I've seen people fly their tracking suits with both palms up and down. Is there an advantage to either? Or is it what ever feels best. I've been flying palms down (palms facing the earth) but after talking to a guy at Z-Hills, it seems like its more of a natural position to fly palms up. It also seems like with palms up it's easier to curve the shoulders. But I do like feeling the wind pressure against my palms.

Your thoughts?

[DSE 5]

Palm up.
Aerodynamically, there is little difference, if that's what you're asking.
You can see your altimeter more readily, and since you're heading towards wingsuiting, you'll fly palm up once you begin to fly with grippers. It also rolls the shoulder and slightly reduces drag at the forearm. Stand bent against a wall and try it, you'll quickly understand. Might as well get familiar with the feeling.

[DiverMike 5]

I was a little confused by your explanation, because of the up/down reference. Anatomically speaking, moving the palm facing up is supination, moving the palm facing down is pronation. This is based on standing up with your arms straight out. I believe you are suggesting he pronates his wrists. When belly tracking the palms would be facing the sky or pronated, or considered to be anatomically palms down.

Beggars put their palms up, which I believe you are indicating is the wrong way to track. From the point of view of the tracker, his palms are down, from a viewer tracking alongside, they are up. It is confusing to use up and down. Pronation/supination leaves no doubt.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[monkycndo 0]

Or for the average Joe, palms to earth or palms to sky. No explanation needed.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[DiverMike 5]

I agree, but you would have to add 'while tracking on your belly'.

It just seems wierd that the Wingsuiting Safety article on the Home Page of DZ.COM written by DSE has a picture showing "palms down while on belly". I guess it was the best picture available and not the best picture for showing how to do it correctly.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[DSE 5]

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I agree, but you would have to add 'while tracking on your belly'.

It just seems wierd that the Wingsuiting Safety article on the Home Page of DZ.COM written by DSE has a picture showing "palms down while on belly". I guess it was the best picture available and not the best picture for showing how to do it correctly.

I told a friend to supinate one time.
She told me "Not on the first date."
Pronation is something I kinda enjoy in private.

What's the difference between peanut butter and pronation?
Peanut butter is made from nuts and pronation is made from calories.

Which picture shows palms down? There are no shots I'm aware of, that show palm-down. All the illustrations are hands on grippers/palms up. The shots of the elbow position on the tuffet are also palms up. Additionally, you see the altimeter in each illustration, further showing "palms up."

Regardless, I'm sure the OP understood 'palm up' better than supination vs pronation. He's a new tracker, so I somewhat doubt the question relates to backflying just yet. Knowing some of the OP's history provides some context as well. He's not fat, so "pronation" is probably more confusing.

But thanks for the lesson. I needed to google Pronate/Supinate to refresh my knowledge.

[DiverMike 5]

It is hard to tell, but this looks palm down to me. I could be wrong.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[JohnMitchell 16]

We train students to track palms down. That's a natural transition from palms down arch, sweeping arms back to palms down tracking position. I don't think there's a huge aerodynamic difference between the two, but I feel palms down feels more natural, pushing on the air the way I usually do.

I watched a student tracker last week, who, despite my training, tried tracking palms up. Hot mess. After demonstrating/reminding next to the student in freefall, she tracked palms down and managed to finally go in a straight line. I get better "feel" palms down and can cup/flex hands for steering, etc.

I also feel I'm a little stronger palms down than palms up. I think you use a slightly different muscle group in the shoulder depending on how your arm is turned. Tracking well is hard work.

[piisfish 140]

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Tracking well is hard work.

barrell rolling too

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[JackC1 0]

My pet theory about palms up or down is that most of the gain comes from what it does to your shoulders (if you aren't actually trying to control your shoulders). Palms up makes your shoulders roll forward naturally. If you look at ski jumpers (who generally have good tracking skills) you'll see all sorts of hand positions but the shoulders are always rolled forward.

[SuperGirl 0]

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My pet theory about palms up or down is that most of the gain comes from what it does to your shoulders (if you aren't actually trying to control your shoulders). Palms up makes your shoulders roll forward naturally. If you look at ski jumpers (who generally have good tracking skills) you'll see all sorts of hand positions but the shoulders are always rolled forward.

fully agreed! some of you may have heard me talk about this concept over and over all summer...

Palms up enables one to roll your shoulders more naturally... so it can help get a better track if your body isn't used to independently moving the shoulders into that position to begin with.
It also depends a lot on the level of shoulder strength and flexibility, as well as rotational flexibility in your elbow joints.
One can eventually figure out how to keep the shoulders in their best forward-rolled (boobs tucked in) position regardless of what the palms are doing. But if you're still learning this type of thing, rotating the palms to facilitate for the rotation of the shoulder can optimize the overall body position.

On the other hand, palms facing the earth lets you push a little more aggressively with your forearms and hands, which can help in different ways... quick directional controls etc.

I also find it makes a difference when taking a dock (edit: I'm still talking of docking in the context of wingsuit flying or tracking), influencing forward speed control... Helps to think about this type of thing when using different types of suits and trying to get docks flying longer and more stable.

[DSE 5]

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It is hard to tell, but this looks palm down to me. I could be wrong.

That isn't my photo. It was chosen by the publisher of the site as a stock photo for the article.

[LiborJanicek 0]

my last tracking suit jump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9hOmLap3cg&feature=plcp

I agree with working out. I've been doing a lot of cross fit type of work outs and notice the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r4p5A4e9vg&feature=plcp

[DSE 5]

Sure you want to advertise/title up intentionally punching clouds?

Line twists are usually a tad easier to deal with when you don't have an extension on your hands, jes' sayin.
Then again... the extension is likely the cause of the linetwists.
Hope to see you soon at Elsinore

[5.samadhi 0]

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my last tracking suit jump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9hOmLap3cg&feature=plcp

I agree with working out. I've been doing a lot of cross fit type of work outs and notice the difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r4p5A4e9vg&feature=plcp

why am i watching you work out?

you go a lot faster tracking when you straighten your legs

[DiverMike 5]

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Sure you want to advertise/title up intentionally punching clouds?

Not only that, you start the video with a shot of the 'N' number on the tail of the aircraft, putting the pilot's ticket in jeopardy.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[davelepka 4]

You're shitting me, right? Two fucking GoPros on a low time jumper doing a solo, and then you post it in youtube with an N number and DZ location in the title.

Fuck your plam position, you have the wrong idea in general. Slow your roll, or it won't last very long.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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(if you aren't actually trying to control your shoulders). Palms up makes your shoulders roll forward naturally.

It's pretty easy, you have to admit, to roll the shoulders either way.

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On the other hand, palms facing the earth lets you push a little more aggressively with your forearms and hands, which can help in different ways... quick directional controls etc.

I totally agree with this, and since most people's problem with tracking is that they don't push hard enough on the air, I recommend palms down.

[dthames 0]

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(if you aren't actually trying to control your shoulders). Palms up makes your shoulders roll forward naturally.

It's pretty easy, you have to admit, to roll the shoulders either way.

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On the other hand, palms facing the earth lets you push a little more aggressively with your forearms and hands, which can help in different ways... quick directional controls etc.

I totally agree with this, and since most people's problem with tracking is that they don't push hard enough on the air, I recommend palms down.

JohnMitchell, do you mean that many could slow their vertical speed more with better use of their hands in a track? I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying and how to evaluate it.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[JohnMitchell 16]

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JohnMitchell, do you mean that many could slow their vertical speed more with better use of their hands in a track? I am trying to understand exactly what you are saying and how to evaluate it.

Many people, when they track, keep their bodies arched, their legs not fully pushing down (knees still bent) and their arms back behind their bodies, blowing back in the breeze. This is not really a track, but a delta position. It's used to move across and down to a formation. It is NOT the most efficient way to get maximum horizontal separation from a formation in a set amount of altitude.

Two things:
1 - Stability costs you performance. Performance costs you stability.
If you're arching and trailing your arms behind you, you're letting air past your body instead of using it to go forward. When you're in a good track, it's a real balancing act to stay stable. With practice it becomes natural.

2 - If you want the air to do something for you, you have to PUSH on it. The more you want to go fast and far, the harder you have to push.

A sideview of someone in a good track shows the body straight and flat, from head to toes (which are pointed all the way back), with the arms level with the body, not behind. A slight bend forward in the waist can sometimes add a little more speed. I like my feet maybe 6" apart and my hands no more than 6" from my hips. Yes, shoulders rolled slightly forward, certainly not arched! This is not a relaxed position. It's like planking in midair.

I'm not the best tracker in the world. But I work at it and do pretty well. I see way too many experienced jumpers that track poorly. I have videos of people with over 1000 jumps who meat plow away, legs barely pushing, hardly making any progress away from the formation. Maybe I shouldn't complain. They're certainly nowhere near me at pull time.

Tracking well is a hugely underrated survival skill. The ability to track well has gotten me out of many sketchy traffic situations. Plus when you hit a really good track, it feels really good.

[DSE 5]

Come to the AfterBurner tracking camp at Skydive Elsinore during Chick's Rock. We'll get you sorted out fast.

[LiborJanicek 0]

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Come to the AfterBurner tracking camp at Skydive Elsinore during Chick's Rock. We'll get you sorted out fast.

If the camps going on Oct 5ht then I'm going to try and make it.

[Freeflaw 0]

tracking isn't wingsuiting. Straighten your effing legs. Arms to your side. Dearch! Focus on your legs, arms just help with dialing in the angle.

[aeroflyer 0]

I fly my suit palms up most of the time, I find it goes a bit faster and pro-track shows slower fall-rates? Although a good tracker used to palms down could probably have the same performance. I tend to try to fly palms up, but if I get unstable I instinctly switch to palms down for some reason (first training?).

With the Tube 3 that I jump, if it is yawing left and right, you're actually supposed to use your shoulders to correct the turn, not arms or legs. Also, if your suit is tending to go unstable and you're doing 180's (or 360's), it is probably because you are flying at too high an angle of attack (not head low enough). I realized today that it's essentially the same as an aircraft going into a spin - one side stalls prematurely, and you turn. Apparantly sweeping your arms high above your back to give more speed / lower angle of attack can actually increase the glide, at least with the Tube 3.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I track palms up, but that's just me.