JohnnyMarko 1 #101 April 18, 2012 Quote Chad, glad you are putting the velo away, what are you jumping instead? Well he changed a lot in his profile..took down jump numbers (who does that? ), took down WL, but it now says he jumps a Batwing..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #102 April 18, 2012 QuoteWell he changed a lot in his profile..took down jump numbers (who does that? ), took down WL, but it now says he jumps a Batwing..... Hmmmm. I smell something fishy...and it ain't fish. As you say, who takes down their jump numbers, and why?. After his last post I speculated that he might have sold everyone a dummy, with his claim of putting his velo on the shelf. Now I strongly suspect he did post that in an attempt to take a bit of the heat off. If that is the case he is still a DGIT. I notice he also removed the post about how safe and careful he really is. Too bad it was already quoted... His Utube videos have disappeared as well. Ultimately, he is only fooling himself.... I hope no one accords him sympathy after his inevitable impact with the planet.... Sangi Mk 2......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amyr 0 #103 April 18, 2012 ***Well he changed a lot in his profile..took down jump numbers (who does that? Me so when i do and say something stupid it will not reflect on my Dropzone. Just my reason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #104 April 18, 2012 QuoteMe so when i do and say something stupid it will not reflect on my Dropzone. Your dropzone is not responsible for your stupidity, (if you do or say something stupid). Just as it can do nothing to help you once you are out the door of that aeroplane. You are responsible for you....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #105 April 18, 2012 This is what he looks like, if you see him on your DZ, say Hi, and ask how he's going. Be nice and show you care and that you are concerned for him and the welfare of those around himYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #106 April 18, 2012 QuotePost: This is what he looks like, if you see him on your DZ, say Hi, and ask how he's going. Be nice and show you care and that you are concerned for him and the welfare of those around him I think he's been spending a bit of time sanitising his image. Pity he already let the cat out of the bag....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #107 April 18, 2012 QuoteBit of a stupid thing to be suggesting that he shouldn't have cut away from a 'simple' brake fire Once again, let's preface what I said with the idea that this jumper put himself out there as being capable of jumping a Velo loaded at 2.0. I made my comments with that in mind. As an examlple, have a look at 3:20 in this video, you'll see the guy jumping a 69sq ft canopy loaded at 2.9 gets line twists right out of the door. Note the speed of the horizon spinning behind his canopy despite the fact that he's already getting himself of out them before the slider even has a chance to come all the way down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_oMXHn427w&feature=g-vrec&context=G234b22bRVAAAAAAAABA That's the point, that's the level of awareness you need to be jumping these type of canopies. You can't just sit there and let 'whatever' happen you, you have to be in control and 'make' things happen for you. The jumper in question in the this thread did not exhibit that trait, and I pointed it out. If at 300 jumps you're jumping a canopy you cannot recover from a brake fire, you're jumping the wrong canopy. A brake fire is a shitty reason to have to chop and use your last parachute. Jump a bigger canopy, or pull higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #108 April 18, 2012 I think this lynch mob witch hunt has gone far enough. Are we going to allow a bunch of vicious personal slander by participants here, based upon only guesswork and supposition, by people who don't even know the victim? Even using videos that are not of him to criticize him, and posting his personal facebook page! What's next? Posting his home address, credit report and photos of his family? Is that the kind of forum behavior we want here? Is that the kind of person you want to be known as? It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. And just like the high school bullies, everyone is afraid to stand up to them. But not me. Beware, some day when YOU screw up, the attack wolves will come for you... Okay, I'm done now. Next I predict the bullies and wolves will respond by attacking ME for daring to question their methods, and by attempting to justify the validity of their bullying. Have at it. Show everyone how perfect you are, and how tough you can be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #109 April 18, 2012 QuoteBeware, some day when YOU screw up, the attack wolves will come for you... Good point. Solution - don't screw up. Think about your actions ahead of time, and make sound, prudent decisions. Don't be stupid and you won't have a problem. For the record, the guy in this thread didn't make a mistake, he made a deliberate decision he knew was going against conventional wisdom. Big difference between that and making a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC1 0 #110 April 18, 2012 QuoteI think this lynch mob witch hunt has gone far enough. Are we going to allow a bunch of vicious personal slander by participants here, based upon only guesswork and supposition, by people who don't even know the victim? Is that the kind of forum behavior we want? Is that the kind of person you want to be known as? It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. Beware, some day when YOU screw up, the attack wolves will come for you... Okay, I'm done now. Now I predict the bullies and wolves will respond by attacking me for daring to question their methods, and by justifying their bullying. Hear hear. Mob rule is getting out of hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #111 April 18, 2012 Defence for the Wolves wish to speak, your honour. I'll happily put my hand up as a wolf..... Nothing has been said for the last 20 years as the body and cripple count has piled up. The see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil policy seems not to work. Good advice is given, to everyone who wants to learn to fly safely. and is freely available. Canopy courses are available to all. There are plenty of examples of people who didn't make it for whatever reason. Basic safety and common sense shouldn't be rocket science.... Yet despite all this, the message isn't getting thru to some people. This "witch hunt" might not work for some, but maybe, just maybe, it will work to deter, or at least make someone else think twice, before pounding themselves, or worse, someone else, into the ground. Its time for everyone to start saying NO! to these individuals, and it might start to have some effect, just as it did back in the day when low dumping eventually became uncool. Standing by and just silently accepting foolish behaviour on our DZ's isn't good enough anymore. Do you have any additional/alternative suggestions that might be effective on these guys John?.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #112 April 18, 2012 Quote I think this lynch mob witch hunt has gone far enough. Are we going to allow a bunch of vicious personal slander by participants here, based upon only guesswork and supposition, by people who don't even know the victim? Even using videos that are not of him to criticize him, and posting his personal facebook page! What's next? Posting his home address, credit report and photos of his family? Is that the kind of forum behavior we want here? Is that the kind of person you want to be known as? It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. And just like the high school bullies, everyone is afraid to stand up to them. But not me. Beware, some day when YOU screw up, the attack wolves will come for you... Okay, I'm done now. Next I predict the bullies and wolves will respond by attacking ME for daring to question their methods, and by attempting to justify the validity their bullying. Have at it. Show everyone how perfect you are, and how tough you can be. Well played sir (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #113 April 18, 2012 QuoteIts time for everyone to start saying NO! to these individuals... Standing by and just silently accepting foolish behaviour on our DZ's isn't good enough anymore. Do you have any additional/alternative suggestions that might be effective on these guys John?. I'm not suggesting that silent acceptance is proper. But public humiliation is not. A basic management principle is to criticize in private, and praise in public. We should certainly let jumpers know if they're screwing up, but we should do that by taking them aside for a private talk, not by lambasting them in a public forum like this one. Sure, sometimes even private talks by different people still won't get the message across, but the same will be true of this public humiliation technique. Then you escalate from talking to grounding. And if they go to another DZ, that's their call. Nothing's perfect. If they kill themselves anyway, you've done all you could. But the lynch mob witch hunt that's going on here has gone too far. Someone who is a victim of this could be moved to resort to violence against the perpetrators for the unfair attack upon their reputation and character. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #114 April 18, 2012 Quote No matter how hard you try, you can't dodge a planet. Reminds me of a pick up basket ball game years ago with a bunch of other controllers. After I had missed I don't know how many shots, one of the guys, who had played college b-ball, said "Now I know why Mitchell skydives. He can HIT the Earth." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #115 April 18, 2012 Quote But public humiliation is not. A basic management principle is to criticize in private, and praise in public. We should certainly let jumpers know if they're screwing up, but we should do that by taking them aside for a private talk, not by lambasting them in a public forum like this one. You are absolutely right, John, and I teach this principle to my instructors. There is a big exception, though, and that is for the individual who is willfully rebelling against what you're trying to accomplish. The public embarrassment attempts to use peer pressure to change their behavior. Unfortunately many of those types feel they have no peers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #116 April 18, 2012 It's a tough call. Every student is different. We can only use "tough love" on those that will respond to nothing else. I've seen more cases of where being tough on the kids just results in them clamming up and doing stupid stuff even more - essentially, they just shut out the input after enough abuse. you have to pick and choose which communication method works. I've griped a lot about the heavy handed approached used by some here (despite VERY high intentions) - but, what I don't know, is whether that treatment was the last resort after trying more friendly approaches. I don't know any instructors that are just assholes right at the get go. But I know enough Swoopy McAwesome's that can drive even the most softest spoken instructor into a drill sargeant - eventually. In the end, you have to figure out what works, what gets through, to each individual student. Nothing is off the table if normal methods don't work. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #117 April 18, 2012 QuoteBut public humiliation is not. A basic management principle is to criticize in private, and praise in public. Well there is more than one way to skin a cat...... Part of the OP's public call was to warn other DZ's about this guy. Considering that they are the ones who will have to deal with the risk (and possible consequences) posed by such an individual, to themselves AND others, I think thats a fair enough call. As a DZO I appreciate any heads up given, however it comes to me. This sport can be pretty brutal in reality. I see a bit of public criticism as small beer in comparison. And if you'll note, some of these "wolves" were quick AND generous in their public praise of this guy when he posted that he was going to do the right thing. Maybe I'm the only one, but somehow his later actions seemed to make me doubtful as to his sincerity. I've run across enough bullshitters in our sport over the years to make me a little wary of accepting things at face value. But thats just me....and I make NO apologies for that. I've learnt that pussyfooting around, generally, is not a particularly effective way to solve serious issues. Whatever has an effect, is fine by me.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #118 April 18, 2012 >Is that the kind of forum behavior we want here? Given that it's saved a few lives - there are pluses to it. >It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. Sort of. But it would be like high school bullies picking on the 15 year old drug users until they stop doing drugs. O the horror. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #119 April 18, 2012 Quote This is what he looks like, if you see him on your DZ, say Hi, and ask how he's going. Be nice and show you care and that you are concerned for him and the welfare of those around him I am nice to everyone that shows up at the DZ.... student, observer, fun jumper, visiting instructor... absolutely everyone. I give good intros to the DZ, landing patterns, introductions to jumpers that are doing the same type of jumps as solos get boring after a while, invite to hang out for dinner and a beer when the jumping is done. I also ask level of experience and canopy, for exit order, etc. I will also very nicely decline to get in the plane with a 300 jump wonder on a Velo. Pretty sure the DZO wouldn't allow said scenario in the plane to begin with. I would also very nicely offer my backup rig for use if it was appropriate for the jumper, or very nicely give an intro to the rental gear that is available or more appropriate. 'Mean' is not my MO. Self preservation on the other hand, is pretty high up on my 'to do' list. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GAskygirl 31 #120 April 18, 2012 Heard another approach recently... After several unsuccessful talks with said jumper, S&TA calls in the <50 jump-wonder with high-performance canopy (dunno size/type, but it was something very aggressive and highly loaded for that number of jumps). Asks jumper to fill out all the jumper information on an incident report, then takes it and files it in a cabinet. "Why?" "Just saving time for when you slam yourself into the ground." After another should-be-penalties-for-that-kind-of-idiocy "landing," he got asked to fill out health and life insurance information and jumper info on a fatality report. Still a marked lack of response from the jumper... Apparently the one thing that got his attention was the manifest girl he was hitting on who said she'd only consider getting to know him once he learned to fly his parachute properly. Figures. So yes... it takes the whole drop zone sometimes. Blue Skies! -=Christy=- D-21464 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #121 April 18, 2012 Quote Heard another approach recently... After several unsuccessful talks with said jumper, S&TA calls in the "Why?" "Just saving time for when you slam yourself into the ground." +1 for that approach, even though it didn't help much in that particular case. There's a base jumping instructor who does something similar with his students: He has them write a letter to their loved ones explaining why they're dead and why they decided to base jump even though they knew how dangerous it was. IIRC, it doesn't stop many of them from going forward with the training, but does help them get their minds right about doing it (if any base jumper can be said to be of right mind). 44 SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joephus 0 #122 April 18, 2012 QuoteI think this lynch mob witch hunt has gone far enough. Are we going to allow a bunch of vicious personal slander by participants here, based upon only guesswork and supposition, by people who don't even know the victim? Even using videos that are not of him to criticize him, and posting his personal facebook page! What's next? Posting his home address, credit report and photos of his family? Is that the kind of forum behavior we want here? Is that the kind of person you want to be known as? It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. And just like the high school bullies, everyone is afraid to stand up to them. But not me. Thank you so much for saying something! On any other message board on the internet, with the exception of Internet slums like 4Chan, a lot of these post would have gotten the poster banned. But then I read on to see moderators not only allowing this behavior but encouraging it? I'm seriously amazed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #123 April 18, 2012 Quote>Is that the kind of forum behavior we want here? Given that it's saved a few lives - there are pluses to it. That is pure supposition. We should really try to deal in facts. It may have saved lives but we can never know. Quote>It reminds me of a bunch of high school bullies picking on a nerd. Sort of. But it would be like high school bullies picking on the 15 year old drug users until they stop doing drugs. O the horror. It is still bullying and in my opinion that is always wrong. Not only is it wrong, but it is counter-productive. This sort of brow-beating makes people shut down and not want to come back to dz.com. If they are gone from here - how can you expect to influence them through the forums at all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amyr 0 #124 April 18, 2012 ***Your dropzone is not responsible for your stupidity, (if you do or say something stupid). I never said if >>> I said I will do or say something stupid I am at 40 jumps I have lots of fucking up left to do. BUT DOWNSIZING TO EARLY will not be one of them. AND just as you say your dropzone is not responsible for you doing or saying something stupid>> How many people check the dropzone of the people that screw up>> By NOT posting dropzone I am saying it is all my fault>> Not the training not the dropzones I have made 100% all stupid decisions all by myself and learned from most of them! Dave and obelixtim Just admit your assholes cause you CARE and thats your way of showing it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #125 April 18, 2012 QuoteThis sort of brow-beating makes people shut down and not want to come back to dz.com. There's an easy fix for that. Create another account with an anonymous profile... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
