skybytch 273 #1 April 5, 2004 Hypothetical - what would be most fair in this situation? Asume that there exists a written rental agreement. You rent a rig. It is handed to you with the main not attached. You or a packer you hire attach the main and pack it. You have a mal and use the reserve. The mal was something directly attributable to packing error or pilot error. Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If so, what portion? In the US the repack cycle is basically four months. Assuming a $40 repack, would you be okay with paying $40 if it had been repacked in the last month, $30 in the last two month, $20 in the last three months, $10 in the last month? Or would you want it to be broken down into weeks? Days? I'm currently working on a written rental agreement for my store's rental gear. I'll take what you all say into account when I write that part. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #2 April 5, 2004 First question is how will you know if it's directly related to a packing error or pilot error? Who ensures the main is installed into the rental rig properly? In my opinion you rent a rig with the understanding that both parachutes may be used. Handles and freebags should be accounted for but the price of a reserve repack, should it be necessarry, ought to be included with the rental. The overhead of the cost of an occasional reserve ride should be absorbed by the income incurred by renting out the rig..My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #3 April 5, 2004 IMHO.... Using a reserve is normal use. Yes, using a reserve reduces it's value, but so does using a main. The price of maintainance should be built into the cost of rental. Maintainance also includes the cost of repacks. . I'm still forming an opinion wrt replacement of lost handles, freebags, mains etc... My first guess would be their replacement should be included in the cost of rental. My second guess is that they should be replaced by the jumper at cost. (ie 1000 jump sabre will cost the jumper US$200-300, or what ever the market value is, not replacement cost.)-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #4 April 5, 2004 QuoteFirst question is how will you know if it's directly related to a packing error or pilot error? Judgement call I guess. I'd say if a piece of the equipment failed - ie blown out cell, broken line(s) - then the owner of the gear would pay. If the person who packed it packed a line over or p/c in tow then the renter would pay. QuoteWho ensures the main is installed into the rental rig properly? Assume the renter is off student status and is self-jumpmastering - it's the renter's responsibility to ensure it is installed properly since the renter is the person jumping it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #5 April 5, 2004 If you are in the business of renting parachute gear, you should be prepared to cover any costs associated with it's use. Unless someone does something blatantly stupid (IE,cigarette burns), it's your baby.If for some reason I had to rent gear and used the reserve, I would tell you to F-off if you tried to make me pay for the repack. I know of a dealer who had a renter destroy a main canopy by taking a ride on a motorcycle ( it got caught in the chain). To the best of my knowledge, this person was not charged for the damage.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jose 0 #6 April 5, 2004 Well, if it was a buddies rig that I packed and had a mal, I would pay for the reserve repack, as I would feel the need as I didnt have to pay for renting the rig. But for some reason, I think that if you rent a rig, and have to use the reserve, there should be no penalty for doing such. There isn't always a definite way to know what caused the mal. Sometimes shit just happens. Even if it is something as obvious as a lineover with characteristic line burns, Im not too keen on having to pay for someone elses equipment that I rented. A friends rig is somehow different. There are a couple of ways of thinking on this I'm sure. One thing that crossed my mind, is that if they person KNOWS they will have to pay for the repack and possible charges for a lost freebag or main, are they going to try to fix their mal for just "a little bit" longer? I know I sure wouldn't, but I can only speak for myself. And I have seen enough out there in my short time in the sport to know that some dumbass would. In the rental car business, there is insurance for damaging the car. If you pay for it, your covered. If you don't, your screwed. Maybe there could be some middle ground here, and charge a minimal amount for "reserve insurance". You could quite possibly look back in your records and see how many rentals you have had, and how many reserves those resulted in. Lets say it was, hypothetically, 1 in 300 rentals. Divide the repack amount of $40 into 300 and charge $7.50 for reserve insurance. Maybe for the whole day's worth of rental, cause if it was per jump that would be a shitload, but my numbers are prolly way off for ratio rentals/reserve rides. Just an idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #7 April 5, 2004 I think if you lose it or break it you buy it, but if you use it then it's just a normal part of using the gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdgregory 0 #8 April 5, 2004 Hey Lisa, If I rent a car and the tire goes flat, I do not pay for the new tire. I put the spare on and return to the rental agency. They take care of the tire as a normal part of business. If I rent a rig then I do not think I should have to pay for the repack of the reserve. I think your rental price should cover some portion of a repack. Use the ratio idea used above, then adjust your rental accordingly for the cost of gear rental or set aside 2 dollars of each gear rental (or however much you choose) for a reserve repack fund. And don't forget to set aside a large amount for beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #9 April 5, 2004 Personally, I don't like the idea of charging for a reserve repack because the rentals cost so much to begin with, but I would think that it would be fair to charge a pro-rate on the repacks. Take the cost of the repack (say $65) and divide by 120 days. You get about $.55 per day. Then, if someone has a reserve ride on day 87 out of 120, there is only 33 days left on the cycle, so they pay $18.15. but if someone has a reserve ride on day 2, they pay about $64. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #10 April 5, 2004 Me or my packer? I'll pay the full amount. DZ or gear store packer, the DZ or gear store pays full amount. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #11 April 5, 2004 I like that insurance idea... would the insurance also cover lost main/reserve pilot chute/freebag/handles? if so, I'd do it in a heartbeat, every time I rented gear, even if the insurance was an extra $20. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #12 April 5, 2004 Using a reserve is "fair use", as I would call it. I wouldn't charge anything (for the repack) if someone used a reserve. re lost handles, main.... I'm still out...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #13 April 5, 2004 I dont' like the idea of a pro-rate in the least. If I have a reserve ride the first day after a repack I pay full pop, but if I have one on the last day of the cycle I pay 55 cents?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflygoddess 0 #14 April 5, 2004 I think it should be included in the price of rent, because you might have that one student or jumper, who uses it might at that all important moment think; "Oh man this is going to coast me a fortune to have repacked, after I all ready paid to rent it." and he/she night not chop it and now you got blood stains and cut-up chest and leg straps...Of course if people thought like that then maybe they shouldn't be jumping in the first place...but I am talking about the most people who rent gear and the most are students and those just off of student status. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wingnut 0 #15 April 5, 2004 i'd say the priceof the repack would be absorbed by the "rental agency" but ost handles would be the cost of the user as would be los of the freebag or main.... those are things that anyone would have to replace if it was thier own rig..... all you are in esence is offering a rig to jump and anything other than use of it would be ocstto the jumper, minus reserve repack... as well you offer it with a reserve to use and they canif they need to........ or a statment that explicitly staes that use of the reserve will incue an additional charge prorated to how long was left on the origanal repack.... ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #16 April 5, 2004 Rental Gear Agreement: [US] be sure to consider if the AAD fires too. be sure to consider 'clean-up' if they land in the mud etc There are three groups of jumpers to consider: - 1. student - not cleared to self jumpmaster aka freefall self supervision - 2. student - cleared to self jumpmaster - 3. licensed jumper The endorsement for freefall self supervision is Cat E and above at a DZ that follows the ISP. It must be noted in the jumper's logbook, with an Instructor's signature. Photocopying the endorsement would be prudent. Most gear stores do not rent to group 1. Most gear stores can rent to group 2. There is a consideration about accessory equipment, namely RSL and AAD. For group 2, the AAD is mandatory. The RSL is optional but does require an Instructor to endorse the student's logbook in order to jump without an RSL. In practice, the vast majority of Is will not give this endorsement because of the additional liability concern. You may rent equipment with an RSL, but what if the student does not hook it up? You should take a long hard look at this too. Say the RSL is hooked improperly and in such a way to cause a fatality. Who would get named in a lawsuit? you, the dz, the Is, the packer….. Make sure you read the BSRs and you know what proficiency card the dz school uses if you rent to this group. The documentation is different and means a LOT when an incident or accident happens. All gear stores can rent to group 3. Verify the license & make a photocopy of it. To set the rate you can: 1. set lower rental rates and specify additional charges when the reserve or AAD are used. 2. set higher rates for all renters and do not charge extra when the reserve or AAD is used. Either of these are viable- just make sure your customer knows which plan you have IN WRITING. Lost stuff: Group 2: This is a student. They should not be expected to pay. Talk to your local instructors about this too. Group 3: This is an experienced, licensed jumper. They should pay for lost equipment. Comparisons to car rental & such, fall down because parachutes are NOT guaranteed to work. But apparently, some of the newer jumpers think that they do always work - even reserves. Another thing is to make sure that the jumper is within the placard weight and speed limitations of the harness & container system, as well as the main and reserve. [This might limit your rentals to flat flyers.] Actually, weigh them with the equipment at the time of rental. One thing I would NOT do in regards to mals is: "Judgement call I guess. I'd say if a piece of the equipment failed - ie blown out cell, broken line(s) - then the owner of the gear would pay. If the person who packed it packed a line over or p/c in tow then the renter would pay." because someone with a mega line twist spinning on their back, that cuts away and pulls reserve, *may* intentionally damage the main to claim it had a blown out cell. [You know those people are out there.] Re: "One thing that crossed my mind, is that if they person KNOWS they will have to pay for the repack and possible charges for a lost freebag or main, are they going to try to fix their mal for just "a little bit" longer? I know I sure wouldn't, but I can only speak for myself. And I have seen enough out there in my short time in the sport to know that some dumbass would." If they have this attitude on rental gear, they will also have it with their gear. See Humility section of Who Lives and Who Dies? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #17 April 5, 2004 My immediate opinion without reading the other responses to this post are: #1) If you packed yourself a mal and jumped it, you should pay for the repack regardless of whether it is rental gear, your own gear or someone else's gear. #2) If a packer packs you a mal on rental gear and that packer is hired by the DZ to pack mains, I do not feel the renter should have to pay for the repack, the packer should. Anyone I give my rig to to pack I am trusting that they will take the time to pack my main with some TLC and not pack me a mal. Granted, mistakes can and do happen. I can forgive a mistake but to have to pay $40 on top of it? What a bummer. When I was a packer, I never packed a single malfunction on any canopy. If I had, I would have apoligized to the person I packed it for and offer to pay for the repack. It is called taking responsibility for your actions. It can be argued that by letting someone else pack your chute you are choosing to place that responsibility in the hands of someone else which is still your choice and you could just pack for yourself to eliminate the risk of someone else packing you a mal. But if it is rental gear, the person doesn't know how to pack themselves and they are paying for a decent opening with their $5 pack job and for the gear itself, I think it would suck to make them pay to repack someone else's screw up.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrhoop 0 #18 April 5, 2004 If there was a written, and signed agreement I would feel obligated to pay. That is only if I, or someone I hired packed the main that was cut away. If there was no rental or insurance policy, then I consider the repack fee included in the rental price. Lost handles I would pay for. I would not feel obligated to pay for anything, if there were no pre-declared policy on rental cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bozo 0 #19 April 5, 2004 QuoteHypothetical - what would be most fair in this situation? Asume that there exists a written rental agreement. You rent a rig. . Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If I "loan" you my gear...you break it...you pay for it. If I "rent" you my gear....the damage is on me with the exception of the handles. bozo bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Praetorian 1 #20 April 5, 2004 Ok, what if I rent a main/container for the day (not per jump) and have a cutaway on jump 2 of the day, I still have all the parts I bring it back explain the mal as one of those shit happens things me or packer packed either way.. do I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites b1jercat 0 #21 April 5, 2004 ON my total mal I paid for the repack and would have been charged for the free bag and handel had I not found them. As far as trying to fix things because I would have to pay..........never entered my mind as I was screaming thru my hard deck. At my home DZ they charge 18.00 a pop for rental. (not where i had my mal) I don't know what they do in the case of lost gear, but I suspect their glad you're alive. I've seen the DZO launch a 182 time after time to try and locate choped gear theirs or not. To answer your post anyone who packs rental gear at my DZ does so with the blessing of the DZO. He's assuming the risk, If you pack it your assuming the risk, its just that simple. blue skies jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #22 April 5, 2004 There's a lot of good input here. I'd just like to cast my vote against the pro-rated by days idea. It's almost as bad as picking an arbitrary number out of the air and charging that to the renter. If you're renting, it should only matter that the rig is in date, not that it's close to it's repack date in case something should happen. I do like the insurance plan. The key to that, though, is for management to seriously set aside those funds for when they're needed-- especially if you're going to cover AAD service (and/or damage to the rig) in addition to repack costs. I also agree that the insurance should be for the day rather than the jump. That's just my $.02... Good luck on your contract. It would be great if you could let us know what you come up with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #23 April 5, 2004 Quotedo I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good question. Since my store isn't large and gear is expensive even at dealer prices we'll won't have a rack of rental gear for some time. So if we only have two rigs and only one of those rigs fits you... you'd be SOL. I'm considering doing a "partial credit" on the daily rental charge for situations like this. Once we have a number of rigs to choose from... you'd be handed another rig to use for the rest of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #24 April 5, 2004 QuoteYou rent a rig. It is handed to you with the main not attached. You or a packer you hire attach the main and pack it. You have a mal and use the reserve. The mal was something directly attributable to packing error or pilot error. Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If so, what portion? In the US the repack cycle is basically four months. Assuming a $40 repack, would you be okay with paying $40 if it had been repacked in the last month, $30 in the last two month, $20 in the last three months, $10 in the last month? Or would you want it to be broken down into weeks? Days? In last week's thread, I mentioned that I would not pay for it - any of it. However, I would like to clarify that in that particular situational context that was brought up, it was a student rig that had been rented, fully packed. As a student rig, my opinion is that student rigs more than any rental rig should be packed better than the normal "throw it down, have packer pack for experienced skydiver" situation. Within this context, first, I believe the main should be attached, but unpacked. If there is a mal - no matter what the situation, I would expect to pay for all subsequent charges (freebag) regardless of time from last pack job. The DZ has to pay the full amount to the rigger regardless of time since last reserve repack. My suggestion is to keep it easy. Hand the rental rig over with the main attached, but unpacked. Any reserve ride costs the total amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #25 April 5, 2004 >>Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? << That depends on what the rental agreement says. >>If so, what portion?<< Whatever portion I agreed to pay when I picked up the rig and put it on my back. This is why the agreement is so important. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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hookitt 1 #2 April 5, 2004 First question is how will you know if it's directly related to a packing error or pilot error? Who ensures the main is installed into the rental rig properly? In my opinion you rent a rig with the understanding that both parachutes may be used. Handles and freebags should be accounted for but the price of a reserve repack, should it be necessarry, ought to be included with the rental. The overhead of the cost of an occasional reserve ride should be absorbed by the income incurred by renting out the rig..My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #3 April 5, 2004 IMHO.... Using a reserve is normal use. Yes, using a reserve reduces it's value, but so does using a main. The price of maintainance should be built into the cost of rental. Maintainance also includes the cost of repacks. . I'm still forming an opinion wrt replacement of lost handles, freebags, mains etc... My first guess would be their replacement should be included in the cost of rental. My second guess is that they should be replaced by the jumper at cost. (ie 1000 jump sabre will cost the jumper US$200-300, or what ever the market value is, not replacement cost.)-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 April 5, 2004 QuoteFirst question is how will you know if it's directly related to a packing error or pilot error? Judgement call I guess. I'd say if a piece of the equipment failed - ie blown out cell, broken line(s) - then the owner of the gear would pay. If the person who packed it packed a line over or p/c in tow then the renter would pay. QuoteWho ensures the main is installed into the rental rig properly? Assume the renter is off student status and is self-jumpmastering - it's the renter's responsibility to ensure it is installed properly since the renter is the person jumping it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #5 April 5, 2004 If you are in the business of renting parachute gear, you should be prepared to cover any costs associated with it's use. Unless someone does something blatantly stupid (IE,cigarette burns), it's your baby.If for some reason I had to rent gear and used the reserve, I would tell you to F-off if you tried to make me pay for the repack. I know of a dealer who had a renter destroy a main canopy by taking a ride on a motorcycle ( it got caught in the chain). To the best of my knowledge, this person was not charged for the damage.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose 0 #6 April 5, 2004 Well, if it was a buddies rig that I packed and had a mal, I would pay for the reserve repack, as I would feel the need as I didnt have to pay for renting the rig. But for some reason, I think that if you rent a rig, and have to use the reserve, there should be no penalty for doing such. There isn't always a definite way to know what caused the mal. Sometimes shit just happens. Even if it is something as obvious as a lineover with characteristic line burns, Im not too keen on having to pay for someone elses equipment that I rented. A friends rig is somehow different. There are a couple of ways of thinking on this I'm sure. One thing that crossed my mind, is that if they person KNOWS they will have to pay for the repack and possible charges for a lost freebag or main, are they going to try to fix their mal for just "a little bit" longer? I know I sure wouldn't, but I can only speak for myself. And I have seen enough out there in my short time in the sport to know that some dumbass would. In the rental car business, there is insurance for damaging the car. If you pay for it, your covered. If you don't, your screwed. Maybe there could be some middle ground here, and charge a minimal amount for "reserve insurance". You could quite possibly look back in your records and see how many rentals you have had, and how many reserves those resulted in. Lets say it was, hypothetically, 1 in 300 rentals. Divide the repack amount of $40 into 300 and charge $7.50 for reserve insurance. Maybe for the whole day's worth of rental, cause if it was per jump that would be a shitload, but my numbers are prolly way off for ratio rentals/reserve rides. Just an idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #7 April 5, 2004 I think if you lose it or break it you buy it, but if you use it then it's just a normal part of using the gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #8 April 5, 2004 Hey Lisa, If I rent a car and the tire goes flat, I do not pay for the new tire. I put the spare on and return to the rental agency. They take care of the tire as a normal part of business. If I rent a rig then I do not think I should have to pay for the repack of the reserve. I think your rental price should cover some portion of a repack. Use the ratio idea used above, then adjust your rental accordingly for the cost of gear rental or set aside 2 dollars of each gear rental (or however much you choose) for a reserve repack fund. And don't forget to set aside a large amount for beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #9 April 5, 2004 Personally, I don't like the idea of charging for a reserve repack because the rentals cost so much to begin with, but I would think that it would be fair to charge a pro-rate on the repacks. Take the cost of the repack (say $65) and divide by 120 days. You get about $.55 per day. Then, if someone has a reserve ride on day 87 out of 120, there is only 33 days left on the cycle, so they pay $18.15. but if someone has a reserve ride on day 2, they pay about $64. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 April 5, 2004 Me or my packer? I'll pay the full amount. DZ or gear store packer, the DZ or gear store pays full amount. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #11 April 5, 2004 I like that insurance idea... would the insurance also cover lost main/reserve pilot chute/freebag/handles? if so, I'd do it in a heartbeat, every time I rented gear, even if the insurance was an extra $20. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #12 April 5, 2004 Using a reserve is "fair use", as I would call it. I wouldn't charge anything (for the repack) if someone used a reserve. re lost handles, main.... I'm still out...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #13 April 5, 2004 I dont' like the idea of a pro-rate in the least. If I have a reserve ride the first day after a repack I pay full pop, but if I have one on the last day of the cycle I pay 55 cents?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #14 April 5, 2004 I think it should be included in the price of rent, because you might have that one student or jumper, who uses it might at that all important moment think; "Oh man this is going to coast me a fortune to have repacked, after I all ready paid to rent it." and he/she night not chop it and now you got blood stains and cut-up chest and leg straps...Of course if people thought like that then maybe they shouldn't be jumping in the first place...but I am talking about the most people who rent gear and the most are students and those just off of student status. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #15 April 5, 2004 i'd say the priceof the repack would be absorbed by the "rental agency" but ost handles would be the cost of the user as would be los of the freebag or main.... those are things that anyone would have to replace if it was thier own rig..... all you are in esence is offering a rig to jump and anything other than use of it would be ocstto the jumper, minus reserve repack... as well you offer it with a reserve to use and they canif they need to........ or a statment that explicitly staes that use of the reserve will incue an additional charge prorated to how long was left on the origanal repack.... ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #16 April 5, 2004 Rental Gear Agreement: [US] be sure to consider if the AAD fires too. be sure to consider 'clean-up' if they land in the mud etc There are three groups of jumpers to consider: - 1. student - not cleared to self jumpmaster aka freefall self supervision - 2. student - cleared to self jumpmaster - 3. licensed jumper The endorsement for freefall self supervision is Cat E and above at a DZ that follows the ISP. It must be noted in the jumper's logbook, with an Instructor's signature. Photocopying the endorsement would be prudent. Most gear stores do not rent to group 1. Most gear stores can rent to group 2. There is a consideration about accessory equipment, namely RSL and AAD. For group 2, the AAD is mandatory. The RSL is optional but does require an Instructor to endorse the student's logbook in order to jump without an RSL. In practice, the vast majority of Is will not give this endorsement because of the additional liability concern. You may rent equipment with an RSL, but what if the student does not hook it up? You should take a long hard look at this too. Say the RSL is hooked improperly and in such a way to cause a fatality. Who would get named in a lawsuit? you, the dz, the Is, the packer….. Make sure you read the BSRs and you know what proficiency card the dz school uses if you rent to this group. The documentation is different and means a LOT when an incident or accident happens. All gear stores can rent to group 3. Verify the license & make a photocopy of it. To set the rate you can: 1. set lower rental rates and specify additional charges when the reserve or AAD are used. 2. set higher rates for all renters and do not charge extra when the reserve or AAD is used. Either of these are viable- just make sure your customer knows which plan you have IN WRITING. Lost stuff: Group 2: This is a student. They should not be expected to pay. Talk to your local instructors about this too. Group 3: This is an experienced, licensed jumper. They should pay for lost equipment. Comparisons to car rental & such, fall down because parachutes are NOT guaranteed to work. But apparently, some of the newer jumpers think that they do always work - even reserves. Another thing is to make sure that the jumper is within the placard weight and speed limitations of the harness & container system, as well as the main and reserve. [This might limit your rentals to flat flyers.] Actually, weigh them with the equipment at the time of rental. One thing I would NOT do in regards to mals is: "Judgement call I guess. I'd say if a piece of the equipment failed - ie blown out cell, broken line(s) - then the owner of the gear would pay. If the person who packed it packed a line over or p/c in tow then the renter would pay." because someone with a mega line twist spinning on their back, that cuts away and pulls reserve, *may* intentionally damage the main to claim it had a blown out cell. [You know those people are out there.] Re: "One thing that crossed my mind, is that if they person KNOWS they will have to pay for the repack and possible charges for a lost freebag or main, are they going to try to fix their mal for just "a little bit" longer? I know I sure wouldn't, but I can only speak for myself. And I have seen enough out there in my short time in the sport to know that some dumbass would." If they have this attitude on rental gear, they will also have it with their gear. See Humility section of Who Lives and Who Dies? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #17 April 5, 2004 My immediate opinion without reading the other responses to this post are: #1) If you packed yourself a mal and jumped it, you should pay for the repack regardless of whether it is rental gear, your own gear or someone else's gear. #2) If a packer packs you a mal on rental gear and that packer is hired by the DZ to pack mains, I do not feel the renter should have to pay for the repack, the packer should. Anyone I give my rig to to pack I am trusting that they will take the time to pack my main with some TLC and not pack me a mal. Granted, mistakes can and do happen. I can forgive a mistake but to have to pay $40 on top of it? What a bummer. When I was a packer, I never packed a single malfunction on any canopy. If I had, I would have apoligized to the person I packed it for and offer to pay for the repack. It is called taking responsibility for your actions. It can be argued that by letting someone else pack your chute you are choosing to place that responsibility in the hands of someone else which is still your choice and you could just pack for yourself to eliminate the risk of someone else packing you a mal. But if it is rental gear, the person doesn't know how to pack themselves and they are paying for a decent opening with their $5 pack job and for the gear itself, I think it would suck to make them pay to repack someone else's screw up.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrhoop 0 #18 April 5, 2004 If there was a written, and signed agreement I would feel obligated to pay. That is only if I, or someone I hired packed the main that was cut away. If there was no rental or insurance policy, then I consider the repack fee included in the rental price. Lost handles I would pay for. I would not feel obligated to pay for anything, if there were no pre-declared policy on rental cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #19 April 5, 2004 QuoteHypothetical - what would be most fair in this situation? Asume that there exists a written rental agreement. You rent a rig. . Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If I "loan" you my gear...you break it...you pay for it. If I "rent" you my gear....the damage is on me with the exception of the handles. bozo bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Praetorian 1 #20 April 5, 2004 Ok, what if I rent a main/container for the day (not per jump) and have a cutaway on jump 2 of the day, I still have all the parts I bring it back explain the mal as one of those shit happens things me or packer packed either way.. do I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites b1jercat 0 #21 April 5, 2004 ON my total mal I paid for the repack and would have been charged for the free bag and handel had I not found them. As far as trying to fix things because I would have to pay..........never entered my mind as I was screaming thru my hard deck. At my home DZ they charge 18.00 a pop for rental. (not where i had my mal) I don't know what they do in the case of lost gear, but I suspect their glad you're alive. I've seen the DZO launch a 182 time after time to try and locate choped gear theirs or not. To answer your post anyone who packs rental gear at my DZ does so with the blessing of the DZO. He's assuming the risk, If you pack it your assuming the risk, its just that simple. blue skies jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites boxingrrl 0 #22 April 5, 2004 There's a lot of good input here. I'd just like to cast my vote against the pro-rated by days idea. It's almost as bad as picking an arbitrary number out of the air and charging that to the renter. If you're renting, it should only matter that the rig is in date, not that it's close to it's repack date in case something should happen. I do like the insurance plan. The key to that, though, is for management to seriously set aside those funds for when they're needed-- especially if you're going to cover AAD service (and/or damage to the rig) in addition to repack costs. I also agree that the insurance should be for the day rather than the jump. That's just my $.02... Good luck on your contract. It would be great if you could let us know what you come up with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #23 April 5, 2004 Quotedo I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good question. Since my store isn't large and gear is expensive even at dealer prices we'll won't have a rack of rental gear for some time. So if we only have two rigs and only one of those rigs fits you... you'd be SOL. I'm considering doing a "partial credit" on the daily rental charge for situations like this. Once we have a number of rigs to choose from... you'd be handed another rig to use for the rest of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #24 April 5, 2004 QuoteYou rent a rig. It is handed to you with the main not attached. You or a packer you hire attach the main and pack it. You have a mal and use the reserve. The mal was something directly attributable to packing error or pilot error. Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If so, what portion? In the US the repack cycle is basically four months. Assuming a $40 repack, would you be okay with paying $40 if it had been repacked in the last month, $30 in the last two month, $20 in the last three months, $10 in the last month? Or would you want it to be broken down into weeks? Days? In last week's thread, I mentioned that I would not pay for it - any of it. However, I would like to clarify that in that particular situational context that was brought up, it was a student rig that had been rented, fully packed. As a student rig, my opinion is that student rigs more than any rental rig should be packed better than the normal "throw it down, have packer pack for experienced skydiver" situation. Within this context, first, I believe the main should be attached, but unpacked. If there is a mal - no matter what the situation, I would expect to pay for all subsequent charges (freebag) regardless of time from last pack job. The DZ has to pay the full amount to the rigger regardless of time since last reserve repack. My suggestion is to keep it easy. Hand the rental rig over with the main attached, but unpacked. Any reserve ride costs the total amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #25 April 5, 2004 >>Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? << That depends on what the rental agreement says. >>If so, what portion?<< Whatever portion I agreed to pay when I picked up the rig and put it on my back. This is why the agreement is so important. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Praetorian 1 #20 April 5, 2004 Ok, what if I rent a main/container for the day (not per jump) and have a cutaway on jump 2 of the day, I still have all the parts I bring it back explain the mal as one of those shit happens things me or packer packed either way.. do I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #21 April 5, 2004 ON my total mal I paid for the repack and would have been charged for the free bag and handel had I not found them. As far as trying to fix things because I would have to pay..........never entered my mind as I was screaming thru my hard deck. At my home DZ they charge 18.00 a pop for rental. (not where i had my mal) I don't know what they do in the case of lost gear, but I suspect their glad you're alive. I've seen the DZO launch a 182 time after time to try and locate choped gear theirs or not. To answer your post anyone who packs rental gear at my DZ does so with the blessing of the DZO. He's assuming the risk, If you pack it your assuming the risk, its just that simple. blue skies jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #22 April 5, 2004 There's a lot of good input here. I'd just like to cast my vote against the pro-rated by days idea. It's almost as bad as picking an arbitrary number out of the air and charging that to the renter. If you're renting, it should only matter that the rig is in date, not that it's close to it's repack date in case something should happen. I do like the insurance plan. The key to that, though, is for management to seriously set aside those funds for when they're needed-- especially if you're going to cover AAD service (and/or damage to the rig) in addition to repack costs. I also agree that the insurance should be for the day rather than the jump. That's just my $.02... Good luck on your contract. It would be great if you could let us know what you come up with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #23 April 5, 2004 Quotedo I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good question. Since my store isn't large and gear is expensive even at dealer prices we'll won't have a rack of rental gear for some time. So if we only have two rigs and only one of those rigs fits you... you'd be SOL. I'm considering doing a "partial credit" on the daily rental charge for situations like this. Once we have a number of rigs to choose from... you'd be handed another rig to use for the rest of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #24 April 5, 2004 QuoteYou rent a rig. It is handed to you with the main not attached. You or a packer you hire attach the main and pack it. You have a mal and use the reserve. The mal was something directly attributable to packing error or pilot error. Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If so, what portion? In the US the repack cycle is basically four months. Assuming a $40 repack, would you be okay with paying $40 if it had been repacked in the last month, $30 in the last two month, $20 in the last three months, $10 in the last month? Or would you want it to be broken down into weeks? Days? In last week's thread, I mentioned that I would not pay for it - any of it. However, I would like to clarify that in that particular situational context that was brought up, it was a student rig that had been rented, fully packed. As a student rig, my opinion is that student rigs more than any rental rig should be packed better than the normal "throw it down, have packer pack for experienced skydiver" situation. Within this context, first, I believe the main should be attached, but unpacked. If there is a mal - no matter what the situation, I would expect to pay for all subsequent charges (freebag) regardless of time from last pack job. The DZ has to pay the full amount to the rigger regardless of time since last reserve repack. My suggestion is to keep it easy. Hand the rental rig over with the main attached, but unpacked. Any reserve ride costs the total amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #25 April 5, 2004 >>Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? << That depends on what the rental agreement says. >>If so, what portion?<< Whatever portion I agreed to pay when I picked up the rig and put it on my back. This is why the agreement is so important. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
skybytch 273 #23 April 5, 2004 Quotedo I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good question. Since my store isn't large and gear is expensive even at dealer prices we'll won't have a rack of rental gear for some time. So if we only have two rigs and only one of those rigs fits you... you'd be SOL. I'm considering doing a "partial credit" on the daily rental charge for situations like this. Once we have a number of rigs to choose from... you'd be handed another rig to use for the rest of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #24 April 5, 2004 QuoteYou rent a rig. It is handed to you with the main not attached. You or a packer you hire attach the main and pack it. You have a mal and use the reserve. The mal was something directly attributable to packing error or pilot error. Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? If so, what portion? In the US the repack cycle is basically four months. Assuming a $40 repack, would you be okay with paying $40 if it had been repacked in the last month, $30 in the last two month, $20 in the last three months, $10 in the last month? Or would you want it to be broken down into weeks? Days? In last week's thread, I mentioned that I would not pay for it - any of it. However, I would like to clarify that in that particular situational context that was brought up, it was a student rig that had been rented, fully packed. As a student rig, my opinion is that student rigs more than any rental rig should be packed better than the normal "throw it down, have packer pack for experienced skydiver" situation. Within this context, first, I believe the main should be attached, but unpacked. If there is a mal - no matter what the situation, I would expect to pay for all subsequent charges (freebag) regardless of time from last pack job. The DZ has to pay the full amount to the rigger regardless of time since last reserve repack. My suggestion is to keep it easy. Hand the rental rig over with the main attached, but unpacked. Any reserve ride costs the total amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #25 April 5, 2004 >>Should you pay for any part of the reserve repack? << That depends on what the rental agreement says. >>If so, what portion?<< Whatever portion I agreed to pay when I picked up the rig and put it on my back. This is why the agreement is so important. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites