Rental rig reserve repack...

[bmcd308 0]

>>I dont' like the idea of a pro-rate in the least. If I have a reserve ride the first day after a repack I pay full pop, but if I have one on the last day of the cycle I pay 55 cents? <<

The idea is to pay the gear store back for their costs. If you have a repack on the last day, you have only "cost" them a day of the cycle.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[tombuch 0]

I think reserves and AAD's are designed to be used, and their use should be included in the rental agreement. It makes sense to charge for lost parts, if you are so inclined, but the repack or AAD maintenance should be covered by the cost of the rental.

In practice, I think it is reasonable to expect a jumper to seek and find a main parachute after a cut-a-way, but it's a bit much to expect a customer to also track the freebag and handles. I think a service oriented dealer will also cover the cost of handles and freebag as part of the rental. It does seem reasonable for a dealer to request payment for the loss of a canopy, but only at the current market value.

A borrowed rig is another matter. If I lend my rig to another jumper I expect that person to return it in the same condition as when taken. That means clean, all parts assembled and packed and ready for use. In reality I had a jumper use my rig and get dragged through the mud pretty big time. She offered to clean the rig and have it repacked, and I appreciated the offer. I'm a rigger and decided that since it was a loan to a friend and fellow jumper I would leave it "as is" for a few weeks and then wash and repack it myself. The other jumper again offered to pay for my services, but I declined.

Your store should consider "friendly" support as part of your customer service policy. Keep in mind that the written agreement you hand a customer says alot about your values as a business person, and your interest in supporting your clients.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, tandem)
Sr. Parachute Rigger
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[riggerrob 643]

As an aside, back when I was working for Square One and they decided that only a select group of professional packers were allowed to repack their rental gear, the malfunction rate dropped to almost zero.

[weegegirl 2]

IMO... if you pack it or your personal packer packs it, you are responsible for it. if the dz hands someone a rig that they packed (or their packer packed) and you have a gear mal... well, that should fall on the shoulders of the dz... and they should owe you an appology for almost killing you. Unfortunately, there are so many gray areas in this sport... you really have to play these out case by case.

[Nightingale 0]

there's so many grey areas in packing too...

you can do everything perfectly and still have a mal.

what if the jumper dumps in a track, has rotten body position or something similar? They're not going to admit to it, leaving the gear store to eat the cost of the jumper's mistake.

[billvon 2,991]

>I think reserves and AAD's are designed to be used, and their use
>should be included in the rental agreement.

Seatbelts and airbags are designed to be used as well, but few rental companies cover their usage during accidents under normal conditions. You can explicitly buy "insurance" if you choose, but that's up to you, and the coverage is decided beforehand.

>Your store should consider "friendly" support as part of your
> customer service policy. Keep in mind that the written agreement
> you hand a customer says alot about your values as a business
> person, and your interest in supporting your clients.

Except that in the real world, things cost money. Most skydiving businesses are not cash cows, and if you cover accidental costs (lost handles etc) other people who rent gear will have to pay that cost through slightly higher rental rates. Is it OK to pass on the cost of someone who can't keep track of their handles and freebag to someone who can? (or, through careful packing, never has to.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it either way as long as it's spelled out beforehand. It's "nice" to cover such costs, but it's also nice to make gear rental affordable to new jumpers, and those two objectives can sometimes be at odds.

[weegegirl 2]

first of all, i don't rent gear. however, if the dz handed me a rig that had a bag lock packed, and i was the sucker who ended up with it, i'm pretty sure my dzo would appologize to me instead of try to stick me with the bill. a lot of this sport depends on the honesty and trust between you, your dz, and your fellow jumpers. if that trust was not there, i would not be jumping at that dz. just me.

[RDG 0]

You must have a lot of uncurrent people coming down to jump Nov-March. I know when I come down to a FL DZs I jumped till I had to catch my flight. If a renter has a cutaway at the end of the day he/she may need to (or want to) leave to catch a flight home. This said in the rental agreement I would outline that they are responsible for retail cost of lost gear, repacks, cypress fires, and or recovering the main / free bag (does not matter who packs it). As long as your up front and the terms are not buried in two pages of legal paragraphs you should be good..

After the fact you should in good faith charge them what it cost to get the rig back on line. Used main, recovery cost ex. , but legally have them on the hook for the worst case.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

It's "nice" to cover such costs, but it's also nice to make gear rental affordable to new jumpers, and those two objectives can sometimes be at odds.

Quite. That's where I'm at. My goal is to provide only up to date, current model rental equipment - and that stuff ain't cheap even at dealer prices. But I also have a goal of having happy customers; I want the rental agreement to be considered a fair arrangement by the majority of them.

Assuming a cost of $3000 per complete rig (container, reserve, main, Cypres) I'm not sure that at $65 a day rental we can afford to cover the possible loss at any time of $100+ in handles and $100+ in pilot chute/freebags in addition to the costs of routine maintainence.

Financials aren't my strong point; if someone with some knowledge in that area wants to explain depreciation and other issues to me - please do!

So, those of you who rent gear - how much more would you be willing to pay for "handle insurance" (like a rental car's "walkaway" insurance)?

[entropothic 0]

At my home DZ it is your responsibility to make sure that you don't have a mal. If that means that when you get a rental rig that you take it out and repack it... if you're that unconfident in the packers... then that's what you need to do. That may sound kinda harsh.. but it's reality.

Our packers are awesome... If i gave them my rig and they packed a mal, i would expect to have to pay for it. A mal can be caused by many different things... and it cannot be determined where fault lies with 100% certainty. Body position has a lot to do with malfuctions on the smaller sport canopies that many are jumping. I'm a fairly young jumper and it would be costly to have to pay the $45... but if they didn't do a good job, then no one would use a packer. $5 is not a guarantee that it will open. That being said... I have not seen our packers pack a mal yet... and i'm highly confident in the job that they do.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Personally, I don't like the idea of charging for a reserve repack because the rentals cost so much to begin with,

How many times do you think a rig has to be rented at a hypothertical $50 a day to pay for it's cost?

Yes, someone who uses a reserve should pay for the repack. The rig was delivered to the user in a jumpable condition, it needs to be returned in the same fashion.

To say otherwise is like saying you shouldn't have to pay a packer for a packjob they did but you were not able to jump because of weather.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Nightingale 0]

60 times, using the cost figure for a rig that Lisa provided above.

Using the square1 prices, they would only have to rent a rig 46 times.

[bmcd308 0]

>I think reserves and AAD's are designed to be used<<

I agree with regard to reserves, but not with regard to AADs. If I was in Lisa's position, I would certainly not think it was "normal wear and tear" to have rig brough back in need of a Cypres cutter replacement.

It is also not "normal" to have it brought back with the reserve in need of a pack job. I think the store should make it clear what the policy is, but I do not think it is unreasonable to charge for the remaining life of the pack job.

With regard to handles and the freebag, those are parts of the rig that should be returned, and if the jumper loses them, that is the jumper's responsibility.

If the jumper hooks it in to the tarmac and burns through the leg straps or the container, that is damage that is well beyond normal wear and tear that the jumper should be responsible for.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[skyyhi 0]

Lisa,

IMHO, when I rented gear from Kama at Ground Zero, it states in the contract that if anything is lost or damaged, I must pay for it. It does not say anything about the repack (as far as I remember). Personally, I believe that anything "lost" (i.e.; handles, freebag, main) or "damaged" (i.e. burn holes from line overs, broken toggle etc) should be bourn by the renter. As many have stated, I think the repack of the reserve should be handled by the gear store. Using a reserve is a normal part of using gear and is "required equipment" in order to be able to jump.

So in summary. . .lost or damaged equipment - renter pays, reserve repack - store pays.

Edited to add: Even with the above being said. . .had I used the reserve when renting and Kama said I needed to pay for the repack, I would have paid without question. I think if it is clearly spelled out in the contract, it doesn't really matter because then the person renting knows up front what the charges for the equipment could be.

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

60 times, using the cost figure for a rig that Lisa provided above.

Using the square1 prices, they would only have to rent a rig 46 times.

I ssure you those numbers are VERY light. Its on the order of 80-100 times, not including AAD maintnence, repacks, cleaning, repairs, ect, and all of the simply covers COST. Profit on a rental rig is rarely realized, it's a tool to assist people in making their purchasing decisions.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

60 times, using the cost figure for a rig that Lisa provided above.

Using the square1 prices, they would only have to rent a rig 46 times.

Okay, so 60 daily rentals at $50 pays for the rig. Now onto the other issues.

How long will it take for that rig to be rented 60 times? Since it has fixed harness and canopy sizes it's not going to be used by every person who needs to rent gear. Let's assume that it is rented three full days per week - so it has "paid" for itself in 20 weeks (five months).

Now, maintainence costs. The initial assembly and pack (assume $100) and one reserve repack due to time (assume $50). It's likely the container will need a wash at repack time, and the main canopy will need several complete inspections in that time frame. Let's say $300 in maintainence costs during the 5 months, which puts us at 22 weeks for pay off.

A reserve ride with all handles and bags and the main returned will cost a repack ($50) and possibly a charge for untangling and inspecting the main, plus the "cost" of having a jump on the reserve canopy (figure a drop of $25-50 in resale value) - up to two days gross rental income. Two days gross rental income "lost" to keep a happy customer? Affordable. I'd cover the cost of the reserve ride in a situation like this, but I would ask that any damage to the equipment found on inspection be covered by the renter.

Now the reserve ride with lost handles but returned bags/pc's and main. There's another $75 - 100, or two days gross rental income. Four days lost gross income to keep a happy customer? Hmmm.... getting grey.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with that.

Great replies everyone, thanks. You're making me think.

[Ron 10]

My two cents:

A normal reserve ride. Where the only cost is wear and tear on the gear. The person keeps the handles and the main and freebag are found. Its normal use...The customer does not pay for the repack.

If a piece is missing, or an AAD fires..The customer pays replacement cost. Lose a handle buy one at cost from the company. AAD fires renter pays the cost of a cutter.

Basicly a "normal" ride where all that is needed is a repack is covered.

Any lost gear or "one time use" gear is paid for by the renter.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Nightingale 0]

I'd say someone is obligated to return everything they rented. If they lose something, they should cover the cost, unless they bought insurance or something from you, which might be a good way to go if you do a lot of rentals.

If you only do a few rentals, providing insurance isn't going to cover your ass if someone loses gear on a cutaway.

Say, on average, one rental canopy per year is lost due to cutaway.

If you rent say 200 days out a year (one rig rented is counting as one day here, so if you rent 2 rigs in one day, I counted it as 2 days for math's sake), and 60 percent of those people buy insurance at $15 a day, then you've made $1800 on insurance and could probably afford to replace the occasional lost canopy.

However, if you only rent 50 days, you'd only make $450 on insurance at $15 a day... therefore, to break even you'd either have to not offer insurance, or offer it at a higher price.

[Brains 2]

I read throught this whole thing and i am amazed at the lack of responsibility of many of the posters. My first and only mal was on jump 27 under rented gear. I was informed after aff that with rented gear, I AM RESPONSIBLE for everything on that rig. Chop, pay the repack, loose a handle, pay for it, freebag missing, buy one. I am sure there could be circumstances that would be waiverable. Lisa, you are doing this to make money and provide a service. You cannot be expected to eat all costs no matter what. Just my opinion.

Jeff

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Now the reserve ride with lost handles but returned bags/pc's and main. There's another $75 - 100, or two days gross rental income. Four days lost gross income to keep a happy customer? Hmmm.... getting grey.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with that.

What's the point of your rental program? Is it to make money on rental gear, or to sample product to potential customers and bridge young jumpers between student status and gear ownership?

If your objective is to run a rental shop, then build a solid contract with lot's of secondary profit potential.

If your objective is to support your customers, and the customers of your home drop zone, then consider the value of good will on your bottom line. The impact of extra charges will obviously be felt by a jumper who uses a reserve but will also be noticed by every jumper who rents your gear, and those who that jumper talks to. The shop that limits extra charges will be generating solid marketplace karma and may well be rewarded, or perhaps will even be 'well rewarded.'

In the winter I work as a snowboard instructor at a mountain resort that thrives on great customer service. We have a "Serve it up, Fix it up" policy that drives guest satisfaction by doing whatever we can to "make things right." There is a resort wide budget for covering the costs of free lift tickets, meals, hotel nights, rental gear, damage repair (even to the guests own equipment), and any other little things that may be needed to sooth a less than perfect experience. The concept is to make sure our guests are happy, and every employee has the power to "fix it up" on the spot. Guest satisfaction keeps our customers coming back and drives positive word of mouth. The "Fix it up" program is an expense, but it builds business.

A drop zone store is in direct competition with some huge mail order retailers. The element that distinguishes a local store from the national companies is great customer service and support. Service and empathy is especially important to the low-time segment of the market, and those jumpers are the biggest user of equipment rental services.

...just some thoughts to throw into the decision mix.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[kelel01 1]

I just have to add one thing . . . If everything comes back to you, why should the renter have to pay extra for USING a specific part of the rig? It is there to be used . . . you could rent out BASE rigs if you don't want to handle reserve repack costs (sarcasm implicit).

Of course, if some part is not returned/damaged, that should be the responsibility of the renter. Now, on the flip side, I'm not gonna cry about having to pay a $45 repack fee, so it's really up to you. I would just be grateful to have a canopy over my head that got me to the ground safely. Just a couple more things to consider.

[Thanatos340 1]

I would also like to point out that if you plan on replacing your rental gear every few years and selling the older stuff. Then you only need to base all your calculations on the Depreciation of the Rig instead of the full purchase cost.
Example: You buy a new Rig for $3K, Every Three Years you sell it for $1500 and Replace it with another $3K newer Rig. It only cost you $500 a year plus your maintenance costs (Figure 5 Reserve Repacks a Year at $40 each ($200) and one Cypres Cutter Replacement at $150.) Your cost of ownership for each rig is $850 per year.
Using your 3 day per week guideline at $50 per day for 50 weeks a year, Each Rig would generate $7,500 per year in income. It would seem that would help cover overhead and profit pretty nicely. Looks like a good business proposition to me.

And I really like the fact that you are spelling everything out in a written agreement. It definitely avoids confusion and conflict after a problem has come up.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Put it in the agreement that they have to pay for the repack. Then pro rate it and be the queen.

[Brains 2]

***I just have to add one thing . . . If everything comes back to you, why should the renter have to pay extra for USING a specific part of the rig? It is there to be used . . . you could rent out BASE rigs if you don't want to handle reserve repack costs (sarcasm implicit).

Because they USED it, someone else likely cannot use it tomorrow(unless the rigger gets right on it) and the renter looses out on that income. When you rent something you assume responsibility for that object like it was you own. If you chop on a friends borrowed gear, are you going to refuse to pay a re-pack because you used something that is designed to be used??

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[kelel01 1]

No, but in all likelihood, I didn't pay my friend to use it. You pay rental fees so you can use the gear. Maybe we could implement a system where you pay $45 a day if you want to use the main only, and $60 if you would like to be allowed use of the reserve. Oh, wait, that doesn't make sense.

Kelly