thunderkat 0 #1 September 8, 2012 Hello all....I'm a very new jumper (41 jumps) and I'm looking to buy my own gear. I'm being warned against all Raven reserves by one dz owner, who is very kind, knowledgeable, and helpful. He basically said they're not that safe and that he's had some issues with them in the past. He didn't get very specific, just said he had some issues with them in the past. I value his opinion very much, but when I'm on here looking for gear, it looks like ALOT of rigs have some sort of Raven reserve in it. They seem as common as the popular containers that they're stored in - Mirage ,Wings, Javelin, etc...I just thought it would be smart to get some other input on the matter. Trusting your reserve is obviously incredibly important, but I also know that everyone has their own opinions on which gear is best and why. Is there a real, valid reason to distrust these reserves? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 September 8, 2012 No reason not to own one, just understand the limitations. They were designed in the 80's and 90's and are not designed to handle high speed deployments or high wingloadings.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #3 September 8, 2012 When you only have one more shot at living. Do you REALLY want to save $400 on it??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #4 September 8, 2012 QuoteNo reason not to own one, just understand the limitations. They were designed in the 80's and 90's and are not designed to handle high speed deployments or high wingloadings. I have a PD reserve, DOM 1989. When do you suppose it was designed? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
girthy 0 #5 September 8, 2012 I jumped a Raven 254 as a main for two years. It opened quick--real quick. But never had any problems. Easy to pack, and a flare that always sucked. I would have zero problems using one as a reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #6 September 8, 2012 QuoteHello all....I'm a very new jumper (41 jumps) and I'm looking to buy my own gear. I'm being warned against all Raven reserves by one dz owner, who is very kind, knowledgeable, and helpful. He basically said they're not that safe and that he's had some issues with them in the past. He didn't get very specific, just said he had some issues with them in the past. I value his opinion very much, but when I'm on here looking for gear, it looks like ALOT of rigs have some sort of Raven reserve in it. They seem as common as the popular containers that they're stored in - Mirage ,Wings, Javelin, etc...I just thought it would be smart to get some other input on the matter. Trusting your reserve is obviously incredibly important, but I also know that everyone has their own opinions on which gear is best and why. Is there a real, valid reason to distrust these reserves? I had a Raven main for a while and I have 1 reserve ride on a Raven reserve... as long as they are loaded lightly in the 1:1 range you are good in my opinion. I have two rides on the latest of the Precision Reserves... the r-Max. http://www.precision.aero/r-max.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 September 8, 2012 What's your point?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #8 September 8, 2012 > He basically said they're not that safe and that he's had some issues with them in the past. They're not as safe as modern reserves. If you do want to get a Raven I would avoid any loading above 1:1; they do not flare like modern HP canopies, and that has resulted in several broken bones that I've seen. (Specific reason - they stall very easily after a short toggle stroke at moderate to high loadings.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beth0b 0 #9 September 8, 2012 I have a Micro Raven reserve, manufactured in '91, loaded lightly at 0.7:1 I used it once and I did a PLF on landing. I practiced flaring up high and it was stalling at about half of what I would flare my main at, so I didn't want to risk trying to run it out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #10 September 8, 2012 QuoteWhen you only have one more shot at living. Do you REALLY want to save $400 on it??? What they said! They have been known to hurt people when put into some tough landing positions. Do you really want to be under less than the best if you ended up open low under a reserve and are forced to put it down in a tight back yard somewhere? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #11 September 8, 2012 I feel that Ravens are getting quite a bad rep. There are : Raven (181/218/249/282) MicroRaven -M (109-120-135-150) MicroRaven -MZ (109-120-135-150) SuperRaven (181/218/249/282) SuperRaven -M series (181/218/249/282) Can one definitively say that all of them suck ? I can't, and I have flown a few of them, loaded anywhere up to 1.2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3331 137 #12 September 8, 2012 I have a Raven Dash-M 150 ft² in one of my Racer's. I got it in 1998 had to use it for the first time in 2007, worked just fine. In my other Racer I have a Swift Plus 7 cell 145 from Para Flite, I've used it 3 times and stood up two of the landings. NOTE: If your going to use DZ packers, check your gear before running to the plane.I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,198 #13 September 8, 2012 You should consider posting this question in the gear and rigging forum. However I will say that Precision has made several types of Ravens over the years, and it can be confusing to understand the strengths and weaknesses of each. The easiest to understand answer to your question I can give is that all of them except the new Rmax are of an older design that works just fine, but when loaded much beyond 1 lb per sq ft. will be difficult to flare well enough to get a soft landing. The same goes for Swift Plus reserves that you may also come across. In other words, you should use a larger Raven than a PDR, Smart, Tempo R-max, or any of the other more modern, higher aspect ratio, thinner airfoil designs that land and flare better. The industry in general considers them safe and effective as long as you use them within the limits that they are designed for. Ken GowlerAlways remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #14 September 8, 2012 Ravens are considered by some to be the best BASE canopy to be 'accidently' produced.2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydave114 0 #15 September 9, 2012 I had a Raven 1 main years ago. I put ~400 jumps on it, including a few at bridge day. Ended up selling it to a base jumper. I currently have a micro raven reserve. If you're looking for a second hand rig, the right size is more important than the "right" brand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 September 9, 2012 I have Raven II (218), 0.95 loading) in my two rigs. Complete confidence in them both. Terminal deployment? No problems. Some people use them as mains....what does that tell you? Flare for landing? No problems. Very soft...talking to it "come on, baby, let me down now...You can let me down anytime now.) Sinking it to a very tight spot was no problem. Latest and greatest doesn't always mean that previous generations are no good. That's bullshit. Apparently, you are getting some "canopy/manufacturer snob" inputs here what with the scare tactics being thrown out. Some would have you believe that paying more means more safe....bullshit. Some would have you believe that all canopies should have the same flare stroke....again, more bullshit. Every canopy is different. You won't know about flare stroke until you fly the thing anyway. ...speaking of which... One good point brought up was about practice flares. Anytime you deploy your reserve, you will want to do some practice flares up high, altitude permitting of course. And that applies to any reserve canopy. Save yourself some bucks. You are going to buy your first rig size-based on the reserve you need anyway. Just be sure to get a size that meets your needs. As mentioned, being a young jumper, your needs right now are probably in the 1:1 wingloading range.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #17 September 9, 2012 QuoteHello all....I'm a very new jumper (41 jumps) and I'm looking to buy my own gear. I'm being warned against all Raven reserves by one dz owner, who is very kind, knowledgeable, and helpful. He basically said they're not that safe and that he's had some issues with them in the past. He didn't get very specific, just said he had some issues with them in the past. I value his opinion very much, but when I'm on here looking for gear, it looks like ALOT of rigs have some sort of Raven reserve in it. They seem as common as the popular containers that they're stored in - Mirage ,Wings, Javelin, etc...I just thought it would be smart to get some other input on the matter. Trusting your reserve is obviously incredibly important, but I also know that everyone has their own opinions on which gear is best and why. Is there a real, valid reason to distrust these reserves? So your DZO says a TSO'd "certificated" reserve isn't safe? Nice to see your DZO knows more than the manufacturer who built it. BTW, I made almost 1,000 jumps on a Raven main and was saved once by a Raven reserve - both 1985 models, both worked just fine. I would also want the DZO to be specific about what is unsafe about them. Something tells me he will have a long list of unverified war stories for you. If your DZO also sells gear I would also be suspicious of his motive. You may find that he doesn't sell Precision or has a sweet deal with another manufacturer that has him wanting you to go another direction. One thing I would warn you and every new jumper about is taking anyone's advise that claims a TSO'd piece of equipment is unsafe. Reserves must pass a very tough battery of tests before being legal to sell (in the US), so for someone to just decide on his own that one isn't safe sounds like he's talking out of his arse.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #18 September 10, 2012 Raven's were very popular mains and reserves. Same canopy. When everyone was jumping non-zp canopies that performed much like a Ravens there were no issues as a reserve. People knew to check the stall point after opening and it was very much like their main. As mains evolved to have better flight and flare performance they separated themselves from Raven reserve performance. So now a Raven reserve is not much like your main. That's why people now get hurt on them. They load them higher than they should (1:1) and flare them like their main. This equals quick stall and landing on your back, hard. Other reserves, both from that era and newer are not as different from current popular lower performance mains and can handle higher wing loadings than recommended with out drastically changing their flare. I don't think anyone would recommend the original Raven (they weren't produced very long). This is the one that DIDN'T have Super or -M in the name. While TSO'd they demonstrated some issues with opening once in the field. A retrofit 'bikini' slider was offered but not required. Many riggers wouldn't pack one without the 'bikini' slider (me) and won't pack one at all since the new Super Raven came out (me too). I can never remember which was which but I THINK the original Ravens were 1,2,3 and 4 and Super Ravens' were I,II,III and IV. Micro Raven's, Dash M's came out after the change. So, if your absolutely not going to load it more than 1:1, and are willing to remember it's NOT your main needs to be flared different then it's fine. And you should be able to find a Raven used as a main (I,II,III or IV) to practice with. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #19 September 10, 2012 I have a couple of rides on my Raven I, loaded around 1:1. Nice standups, no problems. I watched a young woman stall one out and get injured. I doubt it was loaded to highly because she was such a little girl. Just too much flare, too easily stalled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #20 September 10, 2012 Quote...That's why people now get hurt on them. They load them higher than they should (1:1) and flare them like their main. This equals quick stall and landing on your back, hard. ...the rest of the story: If you are landing and you don't know how your canopy is going to flare...all bets are off....except the one that says you put yourself into that position by not testing it before landing. And that has nothing to do with canopy make/model.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #21 September 10, 2012 Quote People knew to check the stall point after opening and it was very much like their main. You forgot this part of my post. Everybody thinks they can land anything anymore and I'm not so sure people are taught to check flare point as much as they used to be. Besides nobody folds their 9 cell up and flys it backwards on the stalled bottom skin anymore.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #22 September 10, 2012 QuoteQuote...That's why people now get hurt on them. They load them higher than they should (1:1) and flare them like their main. This equals quick stall and landing on your back, hard. ...the rest of the story: If you are landing and you don't know how your canopy is going to flare...all bets are off....except the one that says you put yourself into that position by not testing it before landing. And that has nothing to do with canopy make/model. True to a point, but you have to admit, some canopies are more forgiving than others of less-than-perfect technique. In the same way that we put students and newer jumpers on mains that are forgiving of piloting errors, maybe that's not a bad thing to carry through to reserves... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #23 September 10, 2012 >So your DZO says a TSO'd "certificated" reserve isn't safe? They're definitely not as safe as other reserves at "modern" loadings (i.e. over 1:1.) >One thing I would warn you and every new jumper about is taking anyone's advise >that claims a TSO'd piece of equipment is unsafe. Most people would tell a new jumper with a 26' conical reserve that he might not want to jump it on a tight DZ with poor outs. Not all gear is created equal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #24 September 10, 2012 One thing I've done in the past is pack my reserve canopy into a borrowed container and make a jump on it just to check it out, esp. after a repair job (on a 26' lopo). Has anyone else thought about test driving it before they stake their life on it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 September 10, 2012 Quote>So your DZO says a TSO'd "certificated" reserve isn't safe? They're definitely not as safe as other reserves at "modern" loadings (i.e. over 1:1.) Will you expound on that? Why so? Is that opinion or fact?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
