Does anyone even look?

[davelepka 4]

I was reading the thread about tracking dives, and the OP said he opened above a canopy from the previous group (the first group out). When questioned, the jumper respnoded, "I was just heading back to the DZ".

This got me thinking. Most of my jumps are either tandem/student video, freefly, or tracking (where I exit last). In any case, I'm always past the halfway point of jumprun, where I can open and fly towards the DZ, and I'm not flying under the previous group.

HOWEVER, when I get sucked into doing some four-way video, and I'm in the first or second group out, I can't help but open up, and either face away from the DZ or fly perpendicular to jumprun, as I look up the jumprun for the next group to fall past me (I dump at break off). After I see them, I'll turn in, and fly back to the DZ.

So, for all of the RW guys, is it just me? Does anyone else up in the front of the exit order open up, and scan the skies above for jumpers to come raining down on you? I don't really have a fear of a collision where I open up, but the ideas of flying toward the DZ without visual confirmation of the group after me scares the crap out of me.

[MrBrant 0]

Isn't jumprun usually upwind of the dropzone, so therefore by heading back to it, would you not be flying AWAY from the next group, and from a potential collision?

Or, do larger DZ's with bigger planes start their jumprun Before (downwind) of the DZ? (heading upwind)
(The only big plane i've jumped from would be a King Air at a MN dropzone, but the winds were high enough that day that even the first group exited about a mile upwind of the LZ.)

or am i missing something else?

[davelepka 4]

Thats a good question, and you are correct, it does depend on the size of the AC, and the winds for that day.

All of my four way video at my current DZ has been out of an Otter, and the winds must have been light enough that we were downwind of the DZ on opening.

Edit: This had slipped my mind, but this also applies the first freefly group after any RW group. You will most likely open before they do, and should be aware of where you're going under canopy until you have a visual on them.

All of this goes without saying that canopy/canopy collisions can happen at any time, and need to be avoided at all cost, but that seems a little obvious. It seems that many jumpers seem to feel as iff freefall is one thing, and canopy flight is another, even though they both take place in the same airspace at roughly the same time.

[Brains 2]

Dave, we set our jumprun up so that isn't usually a problem EXCEPT:
Freefliers exiting after a four way RW group have a tendency to get to deployment altitude much faster than the group in front of them. When they open and start flying back toward the dz, then yes, they are flying into "hostile territory" Under those circumstances, i have a habit of flying perp. to jumprun (when i am one of those freefliers) until i see the first group opening up.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Icon134 0]

I know that when I've been 1st out (4-way) and other RW. I have opened up downwind of the DZ. which means that upon opening I have in one way or another had to fly my canopy back up jump run.

as for

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Freefliers exiting after a four way RW group have a tendency to get to deployment altitude much faster than the group in front of them. When they open and start flying back toward the dz, then yes, they are flying into "hostile territory" Under those circumstances, i have a habit of flying perp.

if I understand kallend's wind models the a FF may get to altitude faster but should diverge horizontally from RW groups.

for what its worth I have seen people that exited without proper seperation very close to open canopies while still in freefall. (aka falling w/in 50-100 ft from an open canopy...)

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[kelpdiver 2]

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So, for all of the RW guys, is it just me? Does anyone else up in the front of the exit order open up, and scan the skies above for jumpers to come raining down on you? I don't really have a fear of a collision where I open up, but the ideas of flying toward the DZ without visual confirmation of the group after me scares the crap out of me.

I look - mostly because I find it fun to watch the deployments, esp fun to see a video guy fall away from the tandems.

I tend to fly off the flight line for the first 20-30 seconds - stow the slider and loosen the chest strap - before I move on to the control check.

[bob.dino 1]

I'm regularly first out (4-way is my thing at the moment).

If the spot is short, you can't turn towards the DZ until the next group has opened. If the spot is long or I'll still look to make sure everyone in the next group opens ok, and that we're not too close. If we're not first out, that extends to finding the prior group as well.

I think most 4-way folk at our DZ are aware of and follow these procedures. It probably helps that a couple of the instructors have been running canopy safety seminars after jumping on Saturdays recently.

[nate_1979 9]

I know that I always point my canopy perpendicular to jumprun with the risers as soon as it opens, and I keep it flying that way until I see the canopies for the group before / after me.. Not looking to get hit by someone who left the plane after me anytime soon.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Lindsey 0]

What's funny is that I still look...because it's a habit I got into as a student....even though I do 4-way out of a Cessna, so there's NEVER anybody behind us.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rasmack 0]

Guilty as charged. Grew up at a Cessna DZ. Veeery big sky to be shared with (max) four other people. I always check the sky around me while flying though, but this one has never been an issue. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[popsjumper 2]

Help me here...I would think that tracking dives would go out first and track perpendicular to jump run so as to be as far away as possible and not to be above anyone else on opening.

At least that's the way we normally do it...I'll re-check with our instructors, too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

I posted a lengthy run down of different types of tracking dives, and their pros and cons, you can do a search for it (it was within the last couple months).

In short, first or last out is a good spot, as they really only have to avoid one quadrant to be safe (the one toward jumprun). There are other ways to work them into a jumprun, but it relies heavily on a leader who is 100% on where they are, and where they are going, and followers who can stay tight, and can understand and implement the breakoff plan without fail.

[tso-d_chris 0]

I don't like the idea of trackers leaving first. They are going to cover a lot of ground. No reason to start them out close and expect them to fly away. They get extra time separation from taking the spot out and leaving later in the exit lineup, just before the wingsuit flyers. They can get extra distance separation by flying perpendicular to the wind line/jump run for the first 1/3-1/2 of the tracking dive, and then turning downwind and flying parallel to jump run. Leaving first does not offer as much time separation.

[BlindBrick 0]

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What's funny is that I still look...because it's a habit I got into as a student....even though I do 4-way out of a Cessna, so there's NEVER anybody behind us.

linz

Well if there ever is, it's safe to assume that Rick(or whoever's flying) is probably having a bad day!
-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[br0k3n 0]

Well im not an RW guy but FF, however what I tend to find is that as soon as im open im on my rears, and turning either 90 off jump run or further. once im happy im not flying up jump run I stow my slider, pop my brakes and loosen my chest strap.

By the time this is all done i can always spot the groups out after me and before me.. Then its off back to the DZ ...

-----------------------------------------------------------
--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[MB38 0]

Well, I never looked before I read this thread. I was never taught to and it didn't occur to me. I've been looking since I first read this thread and every time I can see the group behind me deploy in airspace that I could potentially make had I turned immediately after deployment. That much safer now, I imagine.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[happythoughts 0]

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o, for all of the RW guys, is it just me? Does anyone else up in the front of the exit order open up, and scan the skies above for jumpers to come raining down on you?

Me. It's not just the group behind me. It's people in my own group too.

Immediately after opening, I grab my rear risers and stop. Then, I check for other jumpers opening around me and do any collision-avoidance with my rear risers, not my toggles.

Next, I collapse my slider.

Above 1,000 ft, I unstow my toggles and check for a steerable canopy.

[davelepka 4]

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It's people in my own group too

Provided that A) the group is small enough, and that B) your tracking skills are such that you can do it without going head-low, during your actual track is a good time to check that the jumpers in your group are all headed far enough away from you.

This sort of goes in line with checking your airspace before you dump, and you should absolutely check for other canopies during and just after your opening. Watching the other jumpers as you track just makes that process quicker as you already know pretty much where everyone is.

This isn't directed at happythoughts per se, it's more of a public service for anyone reading the thread.