Cypress SAVE

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Also, for your theory (that responsibility lies within a misunderstanding about her RSL, learned during the FJC) to be sound, it must also mean that she had no idea her reserve handle worked to deploy a reserve.... because she didn't pull it.

For her to think: "All I need to do in an emergency is pull the cutaway and presto, all is taken care of, and that's just the way all skydivers do it."... for that to be the case, she would have done all 100 of her jumps not knowing what the shinny metal handle on her left main lift web was for?

You can think that all you have to do is cutaway and the RSL will deploy your reserve and know what the reserve ripcord does. Knowing what the reserve handle does not not mean you can't think that all you have to do is cutaway and the RSL will activate the reserve. This is one of my 'con's' abour RSL's. People practice their emergency procdures thinking that they will cutaway, the RSL will deploy their reserve, but they will pull the handle like they are supposed to. Then in a real emergency, they cutaway, nothing happens, things are not going as they envisioned and they don't know what to do next. On the ground or someone with a bunch of jumps will say, "Duh, pull the reserve handle, it's right there and you know what it does." But in that situation in a real emergency, thinking at an even normal level is difficult, especially for someone with 100-jumps having their first mal. So they don't think top ull the reserve handle, allthey know is that things re not going as they are supposed to and the ground is betting big. Hard not to panic when you think you are going to die. As this incident probably proves, this can happen. Again, remeber the GK that was tracking for water when their Cypres fired? They never pulled their reserve handle. it was there the whole time, but again, when you think you are going to die in a few seconds, it is incredibly difficult to remain calm and think through the situation.

I think thatif she never knew what the RSL was or did (not the right answer either though), she would have never thought all she had to do was cutaway and she would have pulled her reserve in this case. I say that because she did cutaway and was waiting on the RSL. When it didn't work, she couldn't figure out what to do because of the stress involved.

Give someone a combination lock and give them the combo. Chances are good they will get it open in a short amount of time, say less than 10 seconds, on the first try. Now give the same person a combination lock and tell them they have 10 seconds to open it or they are going to die, a lot of people would mess it up on their first try and not get it open within 10 seconds. Human nature.

Derek

[goose491 0]

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How many times must it be said

Take it easy Kelpy... I'm not sure what you're gettin at here.

For one theory to work, the other must.

If she thought pulling the cutaway was the way to get her reserve out fine. There's a misunderstanding. Does it absolve her? No. But still, there is a misunderstanding.

But then you have to ask yourself: After pulling the cutaway and experiencing nothing... why didn't she then go to silver?

The answer is one of two:

1) She froze
2) She didn't know what the silver handle was used for or didn't know that it acted independantly of the cutaway/rsl idea.

I was pointing out (to Hooknswoop btw, so I understand why you truncate it and misunderstand), that if what hooknswoop is suggesting is true, (she might have learned that all skydivers activate their reserves by pulling the cutaway), then she either didn't know what the reserve handle was for... or she froze when nothing happened.

Get off my back with this "no real world experience" already... I had no real world experience with my reserve handle until my first chop either... pst! Nobody does.

Anyway, in case you haven't figure it out yet, my point:

The reason she didn't pull her reserve handle can only be one of two:

1) she froze
2) She didn't know what the silver handle was used for or didn't know that it acted independantly of the cutaway/rsl idea.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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Then in a real emergency, they cutaway, nothing happens, things are not going as they envisioned and they don't know what to do next. On the ground or someone with a bunch of jumps will say, "Duh, pull the reserve handle, it's right there and you know what it does." But in that situation in a real emergency, thinking at an even normal level is difficult, especially for someone with 100-jumps having their first mal.

Well in that case, my response is a simple:

"Skydiving isn't for everyone."

Like I said, at 100 jumps, it is impossible to NOT know your reserve ripchord will end the skydive.. no level of inaccuracies during her FJC can amount to that sort of thing.

So now your song is that she might have known the reserve handle would do the trick... but she froze when her first (incorrect) action didn't work.

Alright, well that was MY guess but still, kinda leads us back to the same response:

"Skydiving isn't for everyone."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[NickDG 23]

>>I did a few AFF jumps at Perris - every day they'd put their students on wall mounted harnesses and practice EPs. It's a great practice that I haven't observed up north.<<

Yes, at Perris, and I'd say most DZs, all AFF levels are preceded by a session in the hanging harness. Here they get it all thrown at them, partials, totals, two out, toggle problems, the whole nine yards. One benefit is after a few times in the harness they start to ask questions, like what about this, or what about that, questions first jump students just aren’t capable of asking.

Now, not all students may need so much reinforcement, but remember what you are trying to do here. You are trying to catch the ones that do, and there's no harm done to the rest.

I won’t go as far as saying it's negligent to not to use the hanging harness on every jump for students. As you can also verbally review and get a good feel for a student's weak points. But, I'd never work at one that didn't use harness practice. It's just too much of an easy and simple precaution to take.

On the other hand a DZ that never mentions EPs after the FJC isn't teaching skydiving, they are doing something else . . .

NickD BASE 194

[dragon2 2]

Over here, it's mandatory to get a "harness test" every 3 months, if you haven't got your C yet (which you can get when you have at least 200 freefall jumps, 4 written exams and a bunch of pratical stuff and of course your B, and you have to renew your C each year else you lose it).
The FJC ends with a harness session as well.
Don't know about every jump for AFF, but people here get checked out on their EP's regurlarly, at least till they have 200 jumps (and most people get their C with way more)..

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Well in that case, my response is a simple:

"Skydiving isn't for everyone."

Unless you have been in a situation where you thought you were going to die, you do not know how you are going to react. I wonder if you would pass my combination lock test. I bet there are a lot of skydivers that wouldn't. Resisting panic and thinking your way out of certain death is a rare trait. By your standards probably most skydivers shouldn't skydive, possibly including yourself.

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Like I said, at 100 jumps, it is impossible to NOT know your reserve ripchord will end the skydive.. no level of inaccuracies during her FJC can amount to that sort of thing.

No one is disputing that and the fact that you keep bringing that up tells me you are still missing my point.

Derek

[goose491 0]

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Like I said, at 100 jumps, it is impossible to NOT know your reserve ripchord will end the skydive.. no level of inaccuracies during her FJC can amount to that sort of thing.

No one is disputing that and the fact that you keep bringing that up tells me you are still missing my point.

No no, I'm not. I just keep mentioning it because to me, it's 6 in one, half-dozen in the other.

That is, simple freezing isn't much better an excuse then not knowing how to deploy your reserve.

As far as the combination lock test goes. We, as skydivers, don't race to unlock a combo-lock in ten seconds before someone kills us. We, as skydivers, freefall at death-defying speeds towards the earth with limited time to enjoy the experience and then deploy a parachute.

I would pass your combo lock test if I had visualized it over it again and again in my mind until I lived, breathed, ate and dreamt the very act of entering the combo calmly. (I survived my first malfunction last year because I live, breathe, eat and dream my EPs.)

Again, if she knew what the reserve handle was for, then at 100 jumps, she should have already visualized using it time and time again.

When the time came, she froze.

I was thinking more leniently before, now all I can say is: "Skydiving isn't for everyone."

There is no talking (read: typing) responsibility away from her.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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would pass your combo lock test if I had visualized it over it again and again in my mind until I lived, breathed, ate and dreamt the very act of entering the combo calmly. (I survived my first malfunction last year because I live, breathe, eat and dream my EPs.)

But you may have failed it if you had been visualizing it incorrectly and were unable to re-think it and get it done within those same 10 seconds.

Derek

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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My point was this: When we were shown our gear, it was hard NOT to notice this electronic thing-y in the rig. "What's that?" is a natural question. If my instructors had side-stepped answering 'what's that' on my first jump, I would have declined to jump.

Avoiding the question about life-saving gear to me would indicate a safety issue that was not being detailed. Under those circumstances, I would NOT have jumped at that DZ.

It seems to me that you didn't understand every piece of your equipment from your FJC. I know I didn't.

Nope I didn't. I did feel that I was adequately informed of the risks to accept that risk. The key here to my original post and the reply now is that they didn't intentionally avoid answering my questions. That would have been a red flag to me in skydiving, flying, scuba, anything with risk -if I ask a question, I expect an answer.

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If I am the atypical FJC student, then by all means, don't mention it...but detailed people want to see what the heck they're jumping. I am a detail-oriented person, and have a LOT to lose should something happen to me. I consider anything I do in the air as a calculated risk, as do we all, and I want to know all of the factors that go into that risk assessment.

would you have jumped if there was no AAD?

Considering the fact that in some circumstances AAD's have saved lives, and it is an added safety feature, no I would not have jumped if their gear did not have an AAD. Neither will I jump if my gear does not have an AAD. I jump with an RSL because for my purposes an RSL will not interfere with my jump (I don't do CRW) and again, it is an added safety measure that if available to a skydiver, I will take.

Ron your arguement time and time again has been if you wouldn't jump without a safety device, don't jump at all. You are implying that anyone that installs a cypres or an RSL will automatically become dependant upon it. Obviously it DOES happen, per this thread...but to say that it is more typical for skydivers to become dependant upon AAD's and RSL's than their standard EP's is simply untrue based on the amount of cypres fires/rsl deploy with no pull. If it were true, we would see more cypres saves.

-I'm not relying on my car's airbags to save my life and forgetting about the brake pedal, however, if Chevy will put airbags in a Suburban, I owe it to my family to have them in my truck.

All of this is just IMHO, and only for myself. I do not hold those around me to my set of beliefs or standards, and of course other's situations are different. -but this is what I will always hold myself accountable to. My family would be in a world of hurt with mama gone, and to have someone try to explain to them that something happened in freefall and I couldn't perform my EP's, and DIDN'T have a life-saving back up device installed that was readily available, just for my 'I should be able to do it without' theory...well, it isn't going to be you on the DZ that day Ron telling that to my kids. You could go ahead and point and say "See? I told you so! She made a fatal mistake!" but that won't help Joey, Derick, and Jaleesa...

Edited because I blew it on reasoning. Prolly didn't help any to edit...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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She didn't do nothing, she pulled her cutaway handle and expected the RSL to activate her reserve.

I did the same -waiting and noticed that RSL had no effect, because main was not out- and pulled the silver too, but I was not waiting for any AAD....

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I did the same -waiting and noticed that RSL had no effect, because main was not out

Did you expect the RSL to do anything?

Derek

[phoenixlpr 0]

Yes, but it took no time to realize what is the next action to take. It was jump #122. I was not in the state of panic, but my legs were shaking after I landed. It was FXC on that gear too. I was not even thinking about it.

[Ron 10]

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Considering the fact that in some circumstances AAD's have saved lives, and it is an added safety feature, no I would not have jumped if their gear did not have an AAD. Neither will I jump if my gear does not have an AAD

Then you are by definition dependant on the AAD.

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Ron your arguement time and time again has been if you wouldn't jump without a safety device, don't jump at all. You are implying that anyone that installs a cypres or an RSL will automatically become dependant upon it. Obviously it DOES happen, per this thread...but to say that it is more typical for skydivers to become dependant upon AAD's and RSL's than their standard EP's is simply untrue based on the amount of cypres fires/rsl deploy with no pull. If it were true, we would see more cypres saves.

There are more and more saves every year. Its better than deaths, but it shows the dependance quite well.

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My family would be in a world of hurt with mama gone, and to have someone try to explain to them that something happened in freefall and I couldn't perform my EP's, and DIDN'T have a life-saving back up device installed that was readily available, just for my 'I should be able to do it without' theory...well, it isn't going to be you on the DZ that day Ron telling that to my kids. You could go ahead and point and say "See? I told you so! She made a fatal mistake!" but that won't help Joey, Derick, and Jaleesa...

did I say not to have it? Nope. I do say act like you don't have one. And if that measn you would not jump without it, then maybe you should not jump.

Imagine telling Joey, Derick, and Jaleesa that you had died even with the best toys.

Proper procudures remove the need for the toys. Toys do not remove the need for proper procedures, but it seems in many cases jumpers replace procedures with toys....This thread is a perfect example.

It is very hard for you to claim that people do not become dependant on these devices in a thread about someone doing just that. Also you may say you are not dependant, but by refusing to jump without one you are in fact dependant, but I bet that if you had asked this saved person that they thought they were not dependant either.

AAD and RSL are not bad pieces of equipment, the attitude they instill in some jumpers is.

I still think that if you think that jumping without an AAD is too dangerous, then jumping with one should be also.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Yes, but it took no time to realize what is the next action to take. It was jump #122. I was not in the state of panic, but my legs were shaking after I landed. It was FXC on that gear too. I was not even thinking about it.

Good, but a lot of people, skydivers included, cannot always work through the panic that you are about to die in a few seconds brings. We place the title of 'hero' on people that can still think and make things happen when it ges tough. That is because it is not the norm to be able to do that.

Derek

[phoenixlpr 0]

It was my first one. I was quite surprised by the first real EM situation. Instead of panic I have found piece and the taught EM procedures there.

[Ron 10]

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It was my first one. I was quite surprised by the first real EM situation. Instead of panic I have found piece and the taught EM procedures there.

And that is perfect. That is what is needed. We can clearly see that not everyone feels the same way and that people do infact become dependant. They don't try to, but it is human nature.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

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We can clearly see that not everyone feels the same way and that people do infact become dependant.

What do you mean by that? Dependent on what?

[goose491 0]

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would pass your combo lock test if I had visualized it over it again and again in my mind until I lived, breathed, ate and dreamt the very act of entering the combo calmly. (I survived my first malfunction last year because I live, breathe, eat and dream my EPs.)

But you may have failed it if you had been visualizing it incorrectly and were unable to re-think it and get it done within those same 10 seconds.

Balderdash! I'm sorry, but at 100 jumps, knowing your EPs is all on you. In your mind, it seems you've now escalated your remote "possibility" into a definite "truth" somehow.

Let me present this to you:

Even if, during the FJC, an instructor purposely misinformed our jumper that the only way to deploy her reserve is to click her heels three times and say "there's no place like home" and she bought it.... at 100 jumps, there is NO EXCUSE for her not educating herself of the correct EP. NONE.

People get rusty and people forget stuff! Whether or not this jumper was misinformed during the FJC is irrelevant at 100 jumps, when she ought to have done a whole lot of personal research.

So there are two possibilities:

If she was taught wrong: She hasn't bothered to do any further research into her gear and into emergency procedures. It is apparent because after 100 jumps, she was unable to perform an EP.

If she was taught right: She has forgotten what she was taught AND she hasn't bothered to do any further research into her gear and into emergency procedures. It is apparent because after 100 jumps, she was unable to perform an EP.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 10]

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What do you mean by that? Dependent on what?

Dependant on the AAD or the RSL to replace proper procedures, or allow you to exceed comfort level.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

Come on! Me? I was not even talking about that.

I don't have RSL and I do jump without AAD anytime.

I had student jumps with mechanical AAD on main canopy.

I had 2 HD jump on my VectorII and I'm not even planing any. Am I device dependent? You must've been kidding.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Even if, during the FJC, an instructor purposely misinformed our jumper that the only way to deploy her reserve is to click her heels three times and say "there's no place like home" and she bought it.... at 100 jumps, there is NO EXCUSE for her not educating herself of the correct EP. NONE.

Again, people tend to resort to their initial training in stressful situations. I never said that is what happened, just a very real possibility.

Derek

[MarkM 0]

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Unless you have been in a situation where you thought you were going to die, you do not know how you are going to react. I wonder if you would pass my combination lock test. I bet there are a lot of skydivers that wouldn't. Resisting panic and thinking your way out of certain death is a rare trait. By your standards probably most skydivers shouldn't skydive, possibly including yourself.

If a person can't pass the combination lock test, then they shouldn't be putting themselves into that situation.

If a skydiver can't pull their handles because their either A> freak out or B> don't understand how the handles work, then they shouldn't be skydiving.

[billvon 3,067]

>If a skydiver can't pull their handles because their either A> freak
> out or B> don't understand how the handles work, then they
> shouldn't be skydiving.

Well - freak out, yes. That generally can't be fixed. Screw up because of misunderstanding - no. That can be fixed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If a skydiver can't pull their handles because their either A> freak out or B> don't understand how the handles work, then they shouldn't be skydiving.

They won't know they misunderstood their EP's until they either need them, read something, or hear something.

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If a person can't pass the combination lock test, then they shouldn't be putting themselves into that situation.

Then there are a lot of skydivers that shouldn't be skydiving.

Derek

[MarkM 0]

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>If a skydiver can't pull their handles because their either A> freak
> out or B> don't understand how the handles work, then they
> shouldn't be skydiving.

Well - freak out, yes. That generally can't be fixed. Screw up because of misunderstanding - no. That can be fixed.

If you're a student, sure, but a skydiver with 100 jumps who doesn't take the time to understand a very simple piece of equipment on their rig?

A girl died this year because she didn't understand her Cypres(she set it then drove to the DZ at a different elevation) and that's a much more complicated piece of equipment than a RSL.