Cypress SAVE

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Once again, I ask why we don't stop speculating on this and ask the jumper in question?

Because regardless of the cause, it has spurred some great conversation about how to teach AAD's and RSL's, which is good.

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She is still alive, after all, and is the one who knows if the system failed her, or if she simply froze.

I am hoping the original poster will ask the jumper and post her response.

Derek

[billvon 2,991]

>There are pro's and con's to both scenarios.

Yes. And the way I look at it:

If I tell them about their AAD, and they listen to that but ignore the part about not relying on it, then that's too bad. They got the right information but did not process it correctly. I will do whatever I can to make sure they will process it correctly, but a determined enough student will be able to actively ignore me.

If I don't tell them about their AAD or RSL, and it ends up injuring or killing them, then they died because of something I didn't tell them. They didn't have the option to ignore my advice because I never gave it. And to me, that's worse.

No instructor can make someone into a safe skydiver. It takes effort on the student's part, too. I would not want to put my students into a situation where they could have performed better, but could not because I left stuff out to try to help the students that weren't listening.

[goose491 0]

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If I don't tell them about their AAD or RSL, and it ends up injuring or killing them, then they died because of something I didn't tell them. They didn't have the option to ignore my advice because I never gave it. And to me, that's worse.

How is the AAD or RSL going to injur or kill them?

An AAD can create a two-out. In this case, it's because the student pulled far too low. I'm sure you would have agreed upon a reasonable deployment altitude, knowing about the AAD will not prevent this mistake. An AAD can fire during a wrap situation too and that's bad... but knowledge of the AAD's presence would not avoid the wrap either.

There is another thread in which you have spent much effort trying to convince me that an RSL will do me no harm... I therefore fail to see how you think a student not knowing about an RSL can end up hurt or killed by one.

Telling the student about the AAD and the RSL opens the door to the possibility that they depend on it.

Not telling the student about the AAD and the RSL means they will understand nothing will save them but them.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Ron 10]

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We had the long thread on it. Had she activated her Cypres at Perris instead of at home, odds are damn good that she would have survived whatever mistakes she made in not pulling. So yes, her death had a lot to do with the Cypres. It was the last link in the chain.

The difference is that she failed to save herself.

Then her failure to understand a CYPRES made her fail to set it correctly.

The CYPRES had very little to do with her death. SHE had everything to do with her death.

The CYPRES worked as it was set.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lindsey 0]

If you get beyond a person's training, by 100 jumps there's not much excuse for not having examined your equipment enough to have a pretty thorough understanding of how it works. Really. To not have done that speaks to something (I'm not sure what) within the individual. That's beyond what she learned from her instructor. My question is what makes a person uninterested in the workings of her skydiving equipment? I hear about people who never learn to pack. That's insane to me. How can a person rely on equipment that they've not examined thoroughly enough to know how it works? There are things that instructors and mentors can do on the front-end, I'm sure, to improve the safety of people who just aren't inclined to improve their own safety. But I can't help but think that if people aren't any more responsible for themselves than that, then THAT's where attention should be focused....rather than on particulars.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Ron 10]

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If you get beyond a person's training, by 100 jumps there's not much excuse for not having examined your equipment enough to have a pretty thorough understanding of how it works. Really. To not have done that speaks to something (I'm not sure what) within the individual.

Welcome to "mainstream" skydiving. We spend so much time trying to make the sport popular that we do not think what that will bring.

Someone posted I think on this thread that by the very fact people are reading this thread makes them more safety aware than the average jumper. And to be honest that is something I had not thought of that makes perfect sense to me.

The fact they have taken type to read the Safety and Training section tells me that for the most part they are more safety aware than the occasional jumper.

So here is the problem with this sport becoming popular. Now days there is a segment of this sport that comes out, goes through AFF and leaves at the end of the day. They then continue to jump making 50-100 jumps a year a a turbine DZ. All they do is show up make a few jumps and go home.

THEY are the new skydiver. This is opposed to the old skydiver that would come out, spend all day and a good part of the night at the DZ. Then these jumpers would work on a rating and become a JM.

This does not happen much anymore.

Skydiving is a sport that you get out what you put in. And that includes your attitude on safety.

I would venture that a good number of accidents at a DZ are the occasional jumper. This new brand of jumper does not live the sport and is quick to rely on toys over training. And they have no idea they are doing it since we have made skydiving so "safe".

This is what we have asked for.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rbanfield 0]

I think it would be valuable for a student to take the FJC before they jump for the first time, and also at the end of AFF. During the later course, the student could just sit in an already scheduled class and keep relatively quiet. The reason for this is that they would have a better understanding of exactly what they are dealing with (e.g. in a water landing disconnect the RSL, what a downplane is, etc). I'm an engineer, and understanding how all this stuff works excites me. I imagine quite a few more people are just happy every time they throw out a pilot chute some huge chute comes out after it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Very good idea. I have seen the difference 3 tandems does to a persons level of information absorbtion in their transition course to solo freefall class. Everything makes much more sense.

Derek

[NWFlyer 2]

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So here is the problem with this sport becoming popular. Now days there is a segment of this sport that comes out, goes through AFF and leaves at the end of the day. They then continue to jump making 50-100 jumps a year a a turbine DZ. All they do is show up make a few jumps and go home.

THEY are the new skydiver. This is opposed to the old skydiver that would come out, spend all day and a good part of the night at the DZ. Then these jumpers would work on a rating and become a JM.

This does not happen much anymore.

Skydiving is a sport that you get out what you put in. And that includes your attitude on safety.

I would venture that a good number of accidents at a DZ are the occasional jumper. This new brand of jumper does not live the sport and is quick to rely on toys over training. And they have no idea they are doing it since we have made skydiving so "safe".

This is what we have asked for.

So what's the answer? Sit around and wish for the old days?

Are our licensure/training/currency requirements relevant for what you call the "new skydiver"? Or do we need to have some sort of mandatory continuing education/refresher training/renewal of licenses (not just memberships)?

Once I leave the DZ with my A license, as long as I jump every 60 days, I don't ever HAVE to learn another thing and I can continue jumping anywhere I want any time I want. Heck, most DZ's I've visited don't even bother to check currency, so that 60 days isn't even that big a deal.

Is allowing the individual skydiver to decide what they need to learn still the right approach if the world has changed that much?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Ron 10]

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Is allowing the individual skydiver to decide what they need to learn still the right approach if the world has changed that much?

That is a great question.

I don't feel the current program is very good. I also don't think the USPA does a very good job either. The ISP is better than before, but like you said, once you get a license its all up to you.

The best answer is peer pressure. I have seen some very good programs (mostly at small family type DZ's, bt at some larger ones).

Someone on here said a grood idea. Have programs throught the year covering different topics.

Suggest that each jumper at least watch a reserve repack.

Make each jumper pull his handles at each repack.

I would not wait for the USPA to do anything, and some DZO's are going to do nothing.

So the answer is to tell the new folks and the old the right things. If you hear someone say "Well I knoew I had an RSL so I waited for it to pull for me". Stop them and have the S&TA talk to them.

Be carefull what we say. I have shown how some in this thread have said things that could lead peope to thinking a reserve pull after a cutaway with an RSL is not needed.

Others have shown how people who review their procedures often, and who are current have less accidents that the occasional jumper.

So encourage currency. I would be OK if the requirements were more strict.

But then again I am the same guy that thinks an intentional cutaway is a good idea as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

>Telling the student about the AAD and the RSL opens the door to the
>possibility that they depend on it.

>Not telling the student about the AAD and the RSL means they will
>understand nothing will save them but them.

Should we not tell them, then, that a jumpmaster will be jumping with them, so they will not depend on them? After all, it's a lot easier to depend on the guy who taught you and who is two feet away than a box you don't understand. And they shouldn't be relying on a jumpmaster anyway.

I prefer that my students have information that is as accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions. If I give them incomplete information, then some students may indeed be misled into a more favorable mindset. To me, that is not worth the tradeoff. You may feel differently; feel free to teach your own students how you see fit.

[NickDG 23]

>>So what's the answer? Sit around and wish for the old days?<<

Hardly, but it does show the need for continued education. The gear getting so good it's a curse in some ways.

In the "old days" you couldn't reach 100 jumps without a good understanding of your gear. I've mentioned this one before, but for me it stands out to illustrate the problem. There was a jumper recently that had around three hundred jumps and was wondering what the round ring shaped thing was that was starting to appear on the face of their reserve container.

How does someone get that far being clueless about spring loaded pilot chutes. How did they think it came out of there in the first place? That one stopped me in my tracks.

My advice to people today that start skydiving is get the A license then start working on a rigger's ticket right away as that's the only way they are going to learn about gear. Have you ever met an AFF Instructor, who can’t assemble a Three Ring, I have . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Lindsey 0]

Might as well be the hand of god that saves us every time we leave the plane....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[justinb138 0]

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My advice to people today that start skydiving is get the A license then start working on a rigger's ticket right away as that's the only way they are going to learn about gear.

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm one of the "new skydivers" who has had two things going for me 1) I grew up at a small dropzone, so it's very easy to continue to be a student there, and there's people looking out for me as a newer jumper. 2) I take it on myself to learn on my own. I don't know if I'll go so far as to get a rigger's ticket, but I am trying to continue learning about gear (among other things).

My question was less about those who choose to continue to learn (and getting a rigger's ticket, to use your example, is choosing continuing education) but for those who don't? I'd hate to see additional USPA bureaucracy, but I still think there may be some merit to renewal of actual licenses (not just "pay another $20 and you're good to go, but some actual demonstration of skill/advanced educaton or *something*).

Just food for thought. .

[goose491 0]

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Should we not tell them, then, that a jumpmaster will be jumping with them, so they will not depend on them?

No. Now I'm not sure if you're just teasing me (you are aware of the major differences.)... but I'll bite anyway.

The jumpmaster is not something that will always be there. The student knows this. When the JM is there, the student is depending on them to a certain degree but it is a relationship agreed upon on the ground with an immediate goal. That goal is of progress to a point where the JM is no longer required on each skydive. Every student strives for the moment they no longer 'depend' on a JM being with them in the sky.

This 'dependency' is not paralleled with the 'dependency' on their additional safety devices. (The one we are currently discussing)

Also, plain and simply, we are not seeing people misunderstanding their EPs because of a dependency on their JMs

We ARE seeing an epidemic of people misunderstanding their EPs because of information overload and/or truncated understanding of their gear.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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I prefer that my students have information that is as accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions.

But there is a difference between "accurate" and "profuse". Nobody is suggesting you teach inaccurate info... What people are suggesting is that too much info is being provided to the first time jumper, that some of it is not relevant to the tasks at hand during the first few skydives, and that this is leading to information overload and truncated understanding of very important safety devices.

You know bill, when you ask me this question about not telling the student about the JM who will be jumping with them, you do so sarcastically. When you couple it with: "I prefer that my students have information that is as accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions.", my immediate reaction was to ask you the equally sarcastic: "Why you don't teach your first jump course about the difference between pullout and BOC deployment systems or between D-bag and Freebag? Why don't you teach your first jump course about swoops, headdown and bigways? Why don't you teach your first jump course about square, elliptical and semi-elliptical canopies? About the engines in the plane and about the it's maintenance? ... etc. etc..."

Surely you could provide accurate info about these things. As accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions. I happen to know why you don't, it's because you know that this info does not help them on their skydive with you today. This info should not change the mindset or performance of the student jumper today. This information will only complicate the assimilation of information that IS relevant today.

.. then you blow me off with "feel free to teach your own students how you see fit."

Well (as you are aware) I'm not an instructor. I'm just a fun jumper who cares enough about the sport to discuss some problems we are encountering at the fundamental level. I do so in an open forum which was desinged for just this sort of discussion.

I may indeed chose to instruct one day. When I do, I will use much of the info I have obtained on and ascertained from these boards and people like you.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,991]

>What people are suggesting is that too much info is being provided
>to the first time jumper, that some of it is not relevant to the tasks
> at hand . . .

Yes. And you are suggesting I leave out explaining the function of a piece of gear that they are jumping with that is important to their safety. You think that if I leave them ignorant of the AAD, they will essentially be deceived into thinking they will absolutely die if they don't pull their reserve and their JM can't get to them. And again, you can do that with your students if you want. I would not have appreciated it being done to me when I was a student, and I don't do it with mine.

>Why you don't teach your first jump course about the difference
>between pullout and BOC deployment systems . . . .

Because they are not using a pullout.

>or between D-bag and Freebag?

I do. It gets about 5 seconds of mention when we are going through the main parachute deployment system. "This is the connection from the main parachute to the main D-bag. The reserve system looks the same but doesn't have this connection so the bag disconnects completely."

>Why don't you teach your first jump course about swoops . . .

I do. I teach them that a low turn will result in them picking up a LOT of speed, and at their level this will result in a very hard landing.

>headdown . . .

I teach them how to _avoid_ doing that, because that is not part of the dive plan. (etc etc etc.)

The bottom line is that I think they should be taught how their gear works, and should not be deceived into thinking anything about it. If they are jumping an FXC, they should be shown what the knob is and what NOT to do with it. Failure to do this has resulted in students accidentally turning the thing off. If they are jumping a cypres, they should be shown the unit and told how it works.

>.. then you blow me off with "feel free to teach your own students how you see fit."

That's not a blowoff. If Ron didn't tell his students about the cypres, I would disagree with his approach, but I would not tell him how he had to teach or that he was a bad instructor. Different people have different philosophies on teaching. Some things are downright dangerous (like not telling people to follow through with the reserve handle because their RSL will do the job) and others are just differences of opinion (like the cypres thing.) If a student comes out of an FJC, and the only deficiency in his training is that he doesn't know about the cypres (or knows about it and trusts it too much) he's still doing quite well when it comes to education.

[kallend 2,027]

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I think it would be valuable for a student to take the FJC before they jump for the first time, and also at the end of AFF. During the later course, the student could just sit in an already scheduled class and keep relatively quiet. The reason for this is that they would have a better understanding of exactly what they are dealing with (e.g. in a water landing disconnect the RSL, what a downplane is, etc). I'm an engineer, and understanding how all this stuff works excites me. I imagine quite a few more people are just happy every time they throw out a pilot chute some huge chute comes out after it.

Here's something I posted a few months back.
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1547645#1547645

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,991]

>I think it would be valuable for a student to take the FJC before
>they jump for the first time, and also at the end of AFF.

Well, that's a course tailored for a specific kind of student. What I did is slip about an hour of 'advanced' instruction into the water training, which they have to take anyway. That way you don't waste time on "here's what an altimeter looks like" and can talk about things like recovery arcs and killing sliders.

[goose491 0]

That's fine. Nobody is forcing you to keep an open mind about it.

But I do ask that you consider the following: I do not suggest we not teach about RSLs and AADs per say. But I do express my confidence that a great problem lies within the way we go about doing it. A great number of jumpers do not understand them! Which means despite the instructors best intentions of getting their students the most accurate info possible... they are not.

I explain using examples and I compare by using extremes.

When I compare a student who has learned about these devices during the FJC to a student who has not, I see that the first 'relies' on nobody but him/herself whereas the second may feel they are doing the same, but in fact is not.

You have obviously been teaching a certain way for a certain amount of time. And I understand that this lends itself to a certain amount of inflexibility. Also perhaps a certain dislike of having a newbie like me suggest that things might be better off a little different. But I assure you I want nothing more then a better future for us all, as I'm sure you do too.

Maybe, as some have suggested, the answer is that a student should not hear a darn thing about these devices until they are safely on the ground after their first skydive. Maybe not. Maybe the answer lies in a small change in how these items are addressed (i.e. "...but forget about that. It's not important for now.") Maybe it is simply in the order in which things are taught.

You are the teacher today.. I am merely a jumper who has gone through the progression, "recently" by comparison to you. I do not claim to have the answers... but such an inflexibility is definitely not one.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[AFFI 0]

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I I I I I I I I I I I'm I I

Take a deep breath, let it out...
Take a deep breath, let it out...

Please allow me a moment to tell you about some of my I's...

Skydiving has been more to me that just a great time with fantastic people, skydiving has taught me so much about life and living life with more humility, with more inner peace and learning to live more by life’s terms and not just on my own self centered will.

Some other instructors think I go way overboard where training is concerned with the students I work with. I used to judge other instructors on their performance too but unless there is a flagrant safety violation issue I pretty much let everything slide and keep my mouth shut because I have realized that I am not the instructional “GOD” in the history of skydiving, scores were trained before me and will be after me as well – I just simply be the best I can be not as an act of self centeredness, not because I am making the “big bucks” or getting to jump for free but BECAUSE I am being entrusted with the responsibility to those I instruct with their lives. I have a duty to that human being I am instructing to instill in them a safe foundation of knowledge and practices that they will be able to draw upon for years to come. Bill Von couldn’t have expressed this any better than he did a few posting up when he talked about the varying styles and methods individuals incorporate in their instructional methods.

The information in the FJC is NOT too much information to learn if it is taught correctly – I have heard instructors not teach EP’s properly telling the student that it is too much information to remember and that is a load of crap, that instructor was jut too lost in mediocrity and self centeredness to do their job of teaching another human being life saving skills.

I have had students work with me in our 18 jump program stay current and by jump 12 they can actually teach EP’s! If we take the time to teach them thoroughly and correctly from the start it pays off down the road not only for their safety but it is a great time saver when an upper level student comes out to make an instructional jump and they know their EP’s thoroughly and are that much quicker to ground train.

I all too clearly remember when I was an egocentric 300 jump wonder waiting to revolutionize the solo freefall instructional world with my advanced self-proclaimed superiority and I will never forget the day I was on a rant on how things “ought to be” a very experienced instructor told me to shut up and listen because he had already forgotten more about skydiving than I had even learned yet - and this was very humbling for me (Thanks Rick), perhaps not at first but the seed was planted for humility and getting my rating and my first season of practical experience watered that seed sprouting a forest of humbleness where solo freefall instruction was concerned. People like Bill Von, Ron, NickDG, Wendy, John Mitchell and a host of others that post here are mentors I have never met, - but I realize that they may have forgotten more than I have learned yet, so who am I to judge and look down on others while perched high on a branch in my tree self righteous indignation? So I would like to thank others here in this forum that have helped me become a better instructor, a better person and also to those who think they have it all figured out to help me be more understating, patient and accepting of the “know-it-all”.


If any of this posting bothers you, perhaps you should consider the “shut up and listen” advice I received, maybe it will make you a better person and skydiver

and if it don’t apply than “let it fly”…

Make it a great day everyone!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[goose491 0]

I got about as far as " I used to judge other instructors on their performance too..." and then I remembered how much you like to type

I'm not judging anyone, nor am I out to revolutionize anything... merely making a few suggestions, and elaborations on the suggestions of others.

Personally, I have no idea how such things as RSLs can be misunderstood. Personally, I think I could absorb much MORE info during the FJC then what was given me. Obviously, some cannot.

Anyway, my suggestions and comments were made. They are recorded for all to see in this forum. That was my goal. Consider them, or don't.

If you were to make a few, I might consider them.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,991]

>And I understand that this lends itself to a certain amount of
>inflexibility.

Definitely true. I was called inflexible and a fossil all the time. I wouldn't let Ray jump his Stiletto 107 at 200 jumps, because I was too dumb to understand his superior canopy control skills. I wouldn't let students jump in 15kt Santa Ana winds because I was used to having my way, and couldn't understand that this one time it would be OK, and besides, he had to graduate that day. I hated it when newbies asked if they could do demos - really easy ones, of course, not even into stadiums! - and because I was so closed minded I wouldn't let them do it. I once even grounded two guys permanently because they could not even perform emergency procedures well on the ground, and wouldn't take the drills seriously. I mean, they KNEW that this was all a big joke, and they'd be fine in the air - at least until I came along and, like an asshole, made a big stinking deal about it.

So here's to hoping you never run into an inflexible guy like me, and are not constrained by people telling you stuff you don't want to hear.

>Also perhaps a certain dislike of having a newbie like me suggest
>that things might be better off a little different.

Some day you will be teaching an FJC, and someone with a few hundred jumps will tell you you're practically killing students by not using a Skyhook, or an Astra, or a crossbraced student main. And you will explain to them how they are not really needed in student programs. And they'll give you all sorts of shit about how you're a fossil who is so intimidated by new, more skilled jumpers that you're unwilling to 'go the extra mile' for your students.

On that day, will you remember this conversation? Perhaps.

[Ron 10]

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I prefer that my students have information that is as accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions. If I give them incomplete information, then some students may indeed be misled into a more favorable mindset.

Then I guess you teach your FJ students how to pack since packing can lead to a malfunction?

I hope then you teach your students about the strength of the harness and the use of a freebag.

Your FJC must be about a week long.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334