goose491 0
Ron 10
QuoteNo, not a packing class but we do recommend that they take a packing class ASAP after beginning their student progression – knowledge dispels fear…
I used to teach packing as part of the FJC. The student had 5 packs before he ever jumped. He then jumped his own pack jobs...To include his first jump.
QuoteI do however thoroughly reverse pack a student rig for gear orientation in the FJC explaining how everything works as I go along
Pretty cool.
I have no problem taking longer to teach a student. In fact I still wish I could make students learn to pack before they jump.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
QuoteI used to teach packing as part of the FJC. The student had 5 packs before he ever jumped. He then jumped his own pack jobs...To include his first jump.
Does that add unneeded stress to the jump? Or have you eliminated it by checking the first 4 for potential problems?
Does it add real risk, or do we tend to perceive the difficulty of getting a good opening on a student canopy as far greater than it really is?
Ron 10
QuoteDoes that add unneeded stress to the jump? Or have you eliminated it by checking the first 4 for potential problems?
Each pack job has stages where they had to have them checked before they could continue.
This includes all student jumps. We call them "rigger checks" even though we had Instructors checking them.
I think it lead greatly to the the students understanding of the system. Also it has the benefit of costing only time and at the small club it was not needed to be in a rush.
QuoteDoes it add real risk, or do we tend to perceive the difficulty of getting a good opening on a student canopy as far greater than it really is?
Modern student canopies are hard to screw up. Plus each was checked along different stages and they were watched the whole time.
I like the idea and if ever I decide to make a million dollars out of two, I will open a DZ that includes this.
BTW the FJC was about three days long.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
AFFI 0
QuoteBTW the FJC was about three days long.
Packing class with 5 packs and a 3 day FJC? Sounds freaking perfect!
Curious, how much did the 3 Day FJC cost? I have had friends that I did multi day FJC's with in thier homes at our leisure and thier performances were brillant. The idea of prolonged FJC training must have produced great students. I have also has a few who got tunnel time first and they were fantastic in freefall...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
billvon 2,989
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>Then I guess you teach your FJ students how to pack since packing
>can lead to a malfunction?
I unpack the rig and let them play with it. I generally teach packing around jump 3-4. (Or at least I did until our rigger insisted that HE teach packing for legal reasons, then started charging for it.)
>I hope then you teach your students about the strength of
>the harness and the use of a freebag.
Yep. Harness is strong. One length of type-7 webbing would be enough to hold them in; this harness (show them) has doubled type-7 webbing. Legstraps take load; these adjusters (show them) take the load as well and must be pretty tight. Chest strap (demo) does not take much load and thus has this lighter adjuster. It can also be looser since it doesn't take much load.
And freebags go away to make your reserve more likely to open in an entanglement.
Both of the above - 30 seconds. (And that doesn't even include my description of how lift works!)
>Your FJC must be about a week long.
Well, the length of my FJC was often a source of much amusement, especially compared to Adam's, whose record stood at 1 hour 45 minutes.
>can lead to a malfunction?
I unpack the rig and let them play with it. I generally teach packing around jump 3-4. (Or at least I did until our rigger insisted that HE teach packing for legal reasons, then started charging for it.)
>I hope then you teach your students about the strength of
>the harness and the use of a freebag.
Yep. Harness is strong. One length of type-7 webbing would be enough to hold them in; this harness (show them) has doubled type-7 webbing. Legstraps take load; these adjusters (show them) take the load as well and must be pretty tight. Chest strap (demo) does not take much load and thus has this lighter adjuster. It can also be looser since it doesn't take much load.
And freebags go away to make your reserve more likely to open in an entanglement.
Both of the above - 30 seconds. (And that doesn't even include my description of how lift works!)
>Your FJC must be about a week long.
Well, the length of my FJC was often a source of much amusement, especially compared to Adam's, whose record stood at 1 hour 45 minutes.
AFFI 0
QuoteAdam's, whose record stood at 1 hour 45 minutes.
Was that an effective FJC, less than 2 hours? Jeez, I take that long to teach EP's (including both the knowledge training harness). Perhaps it is my lack of experience, I have only been at it for 4 seasons but I don’t see how less than 2 hours can be effective. I sure would like to sit in his class to learn how to utilize my time more efficiently.
Ron 10
QuoteI unpack the rig and let them play with it. I generally teach packing around jump 3-4. (Or at least I did until our rigger insisted that HE teach packing for legal reasons, then started charging for it.)
You claim to want to show/tell them everything they might need to make a safe skydive yet you don't teach them to pack?
See the problem with your logic? I am not saying you are wrong...In fact I tell the students about the RSL and AAD...But I have noticed that some seem to latch onto that tidbit of info. And the more common AAD fires and cases like the above jumper expecting the RSL to fire a total..Makes me wonder how to better get the idea across about THEY must save themselves. I think we are in fact breeding dependant skydivers and I am not sure why.
One factor is that many of todays Instructors are themselves children of a good modern AAD. I wonder how much of that confidence gets transfered to the students?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 10
QuotePacking class with 5 packs and a 3 day FJC? Sounds freaking perfect!
Curious, how much did the 3 Day FJC cost?
I don't remember, but it was not much. It was a military club so it was quite cheap for the soldier.
Gear rental for the weekend was like 25 bucks. The student learned to pack in the FJC and then took the rig home with them to bring to the DZ. They then turned it back in on Monday.
A REALLY good program IMO, but not pratical for most DZ's. I can see a DZ saying to a prospective student, "Their FJC is a week? There is no need for that, ours is 6 hours and taught by USPA rated instructors"....Most students would go there.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
AFFI 0
QuoteI tell the students about the RSL and AAD...But I have noticed that some seem to latch onto that tidbit of info. And the more common AAD fires and cases like the above jumper expecting the RSL to fire a total.
It is 0445, I have a spinal cord injury (fell off a ladder) that is complaining and keeping me awake so I have gotten to give the ADD RSL communication to students some thought.
What I do is explain how the RSL works comparing it to the old John Wayne movies most are familiar with – military static line jumps from the movies and get them to understand the fundamental aspects of what a static line is and how it works, most get it pretty quickly. Then I take it apart and show that it is a mechanical device and all mechanical devices are subject to failure so it is not to be totally “depended” on.
ADD (Cypress), pretty much the same thing, we have a spent cutter and loop that is used to illustrate functioning and fundamental concepts.
Once the fundamental concepts and operation of these devices are understood, again this usually only take minutes with most, THEN I use this great line I picked up from this Cuban/Mexican/American Instructor I know which goes something like this – “These are back up devices, they are like Guns, Condoms and Airbags – It is better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them. If you are in your car driving along and an 18 Wheeler in front of you slams on his brakes are you going to apply your brakes and take evasive action or just slam into the truck and let your airbag take care of it?” Naturally, no one says they will let their airbag take care of it, everyone, 100% side for application of brakes and evasive action – this gets them to understand that the Cypress is a last ditch effort safety device likening it to something they know and are familiar with, which is their airbag in their car. “The Cypress activates seconds before impact and this might seem low, but think of this, the airbag does not activate until AFTER impact and it saves lives everyday (including mine back in 99). A few seconds is a LONG time for a computer.”
Right wrong or indifferent, that is the approach I use in communicating the fundamental aspects of the back up devices. Then I teach how to activate, connect and disconnect - the good old how, when and why of it. I am ALWAYS looking for more effective ways to teach and am totally open to suggestions that are productive and positive.
Please Advise…
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…
goose491 0
Quote“These are back up devices, they are like Guns, Condoms and Airbags – It is better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them. If you are in your car driving along and an 18 Wheeler in front of you slams on his brakes are you going to apply your brakes and take evasive action or just slam into the truck and let your airbag take care of it?” Naturally, no one says they will let their airbag take care of it, everyone, 100% side for application of brakes and evasive action – this gets them to understand that the Cypress is a last ditch effort safety device likening it to something they know and are familiar with, which is their airbag in their car. “The Cypress activates seconds before impact and this might seem low, but think of this, the airbag does not activate until AFTER impact and it saves lives everyday (including mine back in 99). A few seconds is a LONG time for a computer.”
The redundancy of the above is what is missing from too many a first jumper's original moment of truth IMO.
As stated earlier, I'm not about not teaching per say... but that there is obviously potential to program grave errors in the way info on these items is say... digested?
If you've got eye contact and more then two head nods out of a student whilst you cited the above, then I would be 100% certain that student would not pull a: "I was waiting for the RSL!" on you, if faced with a malfunction/cutaway.
On the other side of the coin, not mentioning it at all until jump 2 or 3 would have the same effect.
So much should be said about diversification of teaching technique for the individual student. If while one cited the above, they got nothing more then a glossy-eyed stare from the student, they might consider aborting it with: "Oh, nevermind these. We'll cover them later, it's not as important, for right now, as xyz..."
Anyway, I just found your 'disclaimer' worth repeating.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
billvon 2,989
>These are back up devices, they are like Guns, Condoms and
>Airbags – It is better to have them and not need them than to need
> them and not have them."
I say something similar. I also add "Now keep in mind this will fire incredibly low - as low as 700 feet - and reserves take almost that long to open. Plus, reserve pilot chutes sometimes hesitate for a few hundred feet. Which means that if this fires because you're still in freefall at 700 feet, it still may be too late. So you can't rely on it to save you."
>Airbags – It is better to have them and not need them than to need
> them and not have them."
I say something similar. I also add "Now keep in mind this will fire incredibly low - as low as 700 feet - and reserves take almost that long to open. Plus, reserve pilot chutes sometimes hesitate for a few hundred feet. Which means that if this fires because you're still in freefall at 700 feet, it still may be too late. So you can't rely on it to save you."
Ron 10
Quotesay something similar. I also add "Now keep in mind this will fire incredibly low - as low as 700 feet - and reserves take almost that long to open. Plus, reserve pilot chutes sometimes hesitate for a few hundred feet. Which means that if this fires because you're still in freefall at 700 feet, it still may be too late. So you can't rely on it to save you."
And I bet a majority of Instructors say the same type of thing....Yet people still do rely on them.
So the question is why and how can we get around it.
I think the why is once they hear that it can save them some start to feel safe. In the back of their mind they "know" that they will be ok and I think that takes the edge off.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
I wonder if she learned on a rig like this:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1008306;search_string=cutaway%20reserve%20single%20handle%20student;#1008306
This post describes a rig where both the main handle and cutaway/reserve handle is on the front of the harness, and there is only one handle that activates both cutaway and reserve. I've never seen a rig like this, but I wonder if it would explain her confusion and delay in pulling the reserve handle.
This post describes a rig where both the main handle and cutaway/reserve handle is on the front of the harness, and there is only one handle that activates both cutaway and reserve. I've never seen a rig like this, but I wonder if it would explain her confusion and delay in pulling the reserve handle.
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteI wonder if she learned on a rig like this:
On those rigs (I learned on one), the main deployment ripcord was where the cutaway handle is on most rigs, with the cutaway/reserve handle where the reserve handle is on most rigs. If she had learned on one of those and resorted to her initial training on that system, the correct action would have been to pull the handle that is now her reserve handle, not the main handle. Doesn't fit.
Derek
Ah. ok. That sounds like the rig I was reading about. I know that sometimes when people start with a one handed cutaway drill and change to two handed or vice versa, they end up reverting to their old one or doing a combination of the two in an emergency, so I was wondering if something like that might've happened to her. Doesn't sound like it, though.
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the info!
Yah. I first did AFF on such a rig (they're still used for students in Australia, or were), and those EPs have been very thoroughly drilled out of me by instructors since then. Because one was two-handed (both on SOS handle) and the other is one-hand-on-each, the very first movement serves to set my mind into the new pattern.
But even if by some utterly horrible mischance I did revert, or combine the two sets of EPs, the end result would always be my having at least my reserve out. Worst case, my main too, but the reserve would definitely be out.
But even if by some utterly horrible mischance I did revert, or combine the two sets of EPs, the end result would always be my having at least my reserve out. Worst case, my main too, but the reserve would definitely be out.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan
"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?
My apologies bill, if you take my posts to mean that. They do not.
My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!
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