Andy9o8 2 #26 June 17, 2012 Quotemuch like a ski area is protected by law if your 14 or 16 yr old hits a tree and dies or is a cripple for life..... It's a known risk all willing except when they buy a lift ticket and is protected by law. Long story short, in most states, ski areas are not protected by law (or waivers) any more or any less than DZs are. It's a legal-risk vs. business-benefit judgment that individual ski operators make, the same way individual DZOs make that that judgment (particularly re: minors engaging in non-tandem jumping; The tandem rigs mfgrs' restrictions do inject another element into the picture re: tandem jumping.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #27 June 17, 2012 I don't remember how the Colorado law is written, there is one in CA that is like the CO one... However this link kind of sums up the point I was trying to make in that statement. http://www.morrisonmahoney.com/publications/Ski%20Resort%20Liability.pdf You would have a better understanding on these matters then us non lawyer types.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #28 June 17, 2012 Quote Skydiving age takes a plunge http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/story/2012/06/12/skydiving-age-takes-a-plunge/you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #29 June 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuade, you're wrong! I welcome any and all USPA documentation proving your statement. Go for it. QuoteD. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Think about what you are reading. Point a. is saying that the 18yr old age limit is waiver able Point b. is saying that the age or need for parental or guardian consent is waiver able. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 569 #30 June 17, 2012 Quote Quote Skydiving age takes a plunge http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/story/2012/06/12/skydiving-age-takes-a-plunge/ Yip them ozzies are tough and grow up much quicker than the american youngsters It's not that uncommon this part of the world. A friend is a TI and he took his 12 year old for his 10000th jump. A boy in my kids class was in the papers for being the youngest jumper in WA at 10 or 11 years old (tandem student). As the article says kids of 12 are doing extreme sports on their own, so a tandem is not a huge deal.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #31 June 17, 2012 Quote QuoteD. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Think about what you are reading. Point a. is saying that the 18yr old age limit is waiver able Point b. is saying that the age or need for parental or guardian consent is waiver able. Point A would be waiverable for an emancipated or married minor who has full legal adult rights. Point B would be waiverable for a minor under the age of 16 who has parental consent. A dependent minor shouldn't be able to get a waiver without parental consent.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #32 June 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteIt is perfectly legal for a 16 year old to do a Tandem Jump (or AFF or SL) at a USPA Group Member DZ. Has been USPA legal for 16 year olds to jump for at least 55 years. Of course, any DZ may set the age limit above 16 as they see fit. Mike Mullins Mike, I know you think you're right, but the USPA BSRs say otherwise (which would be important if a drop zone is claiming to "follow all USPA & FAA Rules and Regulations."). Specifically, 2-1 D. It says; Quote D. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least either: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Source: http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#21d That [FB] means it's waiverable, but only by the Full Board, not the individual drop zones themselves. Source: http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section2/tabid/164/Default.aspx#22b And that's not opinion, that's fact, chapter and verse. What that means is that 16 & 17 yo can jump without a waiver from the FB. If you what to jump under 16 yo then you need a FB waiver. Quote So, how many USPA Group Member drop zones have been granted generic, always in effect, under 16 waivers by the full board? to my knowledge - none. At one time circa 1960's the age restriction read 'age of legal majority'. (as published in Parachutist) .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpdude 0 #33 June 17, 2012 All this chatter about how restrictive USPA is just confirms my preference to jump at NON-USPA DZ's! USPA is still just a VOLUNTARY membership club and DOES NOT have the ability to do a ramp check, ground airplanes and/or skydivers, and they CANNOT tell anyone they can't jump! FAA on the other hand can do these things, It's been proven time and time again! If USPA really had this almighty power that some think it does, there would be no such thing as a NON-USPA DZ! All USPA can do is send a nasty letter to a person or worse case, yank a ticket, so, in the event USPA pulls someone's ticket, did they really stop a person from jumping? NO! Go to a NON-USPA DZ and enjoy the freedom! Is a NON-USPA DZ any less safe than a USPA GM DZ? Nope! The FAA is the governing authority that DZO's do have to answer to!! Does having that USPA Membership card in a jumper's pocket make that person a better or safer jumper, HELL NO! Not one bit! Never made any difference to me! I've even done several Demo's without a membership, actually, more without than with, when I filed the event with the FAA, they NEVER asked, nor cared! I do 100% agree that the fear of the legal system has a overbearing effect and causes self imposed age restrictions by DZO's, but if a 10 year old can ride a roller coaster provided they meet the height requirements, why would skydiving be any different. If an individual can PROPERLY fit in the harness, where's the problem? I have PERSONALLY been on a load with a 12 year doing a Tandem, YES, I did say 12! And I can assure you that this individual was not in any more danger than a 16, 18, or even a 50 year old. The TI REQUIRED that the 12 year fit the harness properly before he agreed to take the 12 year old for the jump. A factor that we do have to recognize is state laws, There may be some state laws that prevent underagers from participating in certain activities, but if a law is focused only on skydiving, I would think that it could be challenged as descriminating against a certain venue. Unless something has changed recently, a person has to be 19 to jump at Skydive Alabama, when I asked why, the DZO at the time told me that it was due to the Alabama State law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #34 June 18, 2012 QuoteQuote QuoteD. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Think about what you are reading. Point a. is saying that the 18yr old age limit is waiver able Point b. is saying that the age or need for parental or guardian consent is waiver able. Point A would be waiverable for an emancipated or married minor who has full legal adult rights. Point B would be waiverable for a minor under the age of 16 who has parental consent. A dependent minor shouldn't be able to get a waiver without parental consent. There are emancipated 16 yr olds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #35 June 18, 2012 Quote There are emancipated 16 yr olds. In theory an emancipated 16 year old would be able to sign his/her own valid waiver. I'm not an attorney so I won't say for sure that they could."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #36 June 18, 2012 Mike and Jan are both long time BOD members, and they are BOTH saying you are wrong in your interpretation of the BSRs. Perhaps you should admit that you are wrong in this case.... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #37 June 18, 2012 Quote Mike and Jan are both long time BOD members, and they are BOTH saying you are wrong in your interpretation of the BSRs. Perhaps you should admit that you are wrong in this case.... Actually, Jan is saying something different than Mike. Mike's interpretation is incorrect. As for their being long time members of the BoD, if you believe that carries some sort of specialized weight, then you really need to reassess why their interpretations of the same rule differ. In fact, what you might want to do is really try to understand why each of the two members have the opinions they do. Please take into account the fact Mike has a financial interest in a non-USPA drop zone; the same one he recommended to the original poster.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpdude 0 #38 June 18, 2012 Quote Quote Mike and Jan are both long time BOD members, and they are BOTH saying you are wrong in your interpretation of the BSRs. Perhaps you should admit that you are wrong in this case.... Actually, Jan is saying something different than Mike. Mike's interpretation is incorrect. As for their being long time members of the BoD, if you believe that carries some sort of specialized weight, then you really need to reassess why their interpretations of the same rule differ. In fact, what you might want to do is really try to understand why each of the two members have the opinions they do. Please take into account the fact Mike has a financial interest in a non-USPA drop zone; the same one he recommended to the original poster. I have absolutely NOTHING to gain by sending someone to Mike's DZ's, I send people to them each and every day via exit links from my sites, and ask nothing in return! I don't know how many actually show up, but they at least click through. So why are pointing out that Mike has a NON USPA DZ? We all know that! Is there a problem with that? And your point is????Refuse to Lose!!! Failure is NOT an option! 1800skyrideripoff.com Nashvilleskydiving.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #39 June 18, 2012 Disagree. Nothing Mike has said is necessarily diffferent to that Jan said. It looks like you are adding in some other factors to reach your conclusions. USPA rules allow 16 year olds to jump with parental consent. Assuming that it is actually the father asking where he can arrange to do this, then the answer is any DZ where the DZO allows it as USPA/FAA rules etc allow it. Its seems that being a greenie doesn't carry any specialised weight, albeit it grants specialised powers Quote Actually, Jan is saying something different than Mike. Mike's interpretation is incorrect. As for their being long time members of the BoD, if you believe that carries some sort of specialized weight, then you really need to reassess why their interpretations of the same rule differ. In fact, what you might want to do is really try to understand why each of the two members have the opinions they do. Please take into account the fact Mike has a financial interest in a non-USPA drop zone; the same one he recommended to the original poster. The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #40 June 18, 2012 You need to reread what they each wrote then once again consult the USPA BSRs.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 569 #41 June 18, 2012 Strop, in one respect quads is right. Earlier this year the USPA rules were changed such that tandems must comply with the manufacturers age requirements unless specifically wavered. Where I strongly disagree with quade is that he alleges a 16 year old jumping is unsafe. We all know that the rule is there for legal reasons only. I wasn't aware that Mike's dz is not a group member. That just goes to show what a farce USPA memberships can be. It seems that BOD members don't put much stock in USPA membership. However I agree with quads that dz's who choose not to be members of a national body have a reason to do so. If the reason is financial, then what other shortcuts are taken? Generally industry membership helps with sales and removes the fear factor that can otherwise be spread. The only valid reason I can think of is that USPA rules and validation are seen to be a complete joke and not worth the effort.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alabamaskydiver 0 #42 June 18, 2012 QuoteAll this chatter about how restrictive USPA is just confirms my preference to jump at NON-USPA DZ's! USPA is still just a VOLUNTARY membership club and DOES NOT have the ability to do a ramp check, ground airplanes and/or skydivers, and they CANNOT tell anyone they can't jump! FAA on the other hand can do these things, It's been proven time and time again! If USPA really had this almighty power that some think it does, there would be no such thing as a NON-USPA DZ! All USPA can do is send a nasty letter to a person or worse case, yank a ticket, so, in the event USPA pulls someone's ticket, did they really stop a person from jumping? NO! Go to a NON-USPA DZ and enjoy the freedom! Is a NON-USPA DZ any less safe than a USPA GM DZ? Nope! The FAA is the governing authority that DZO's do have to answer to!! Does having that USPA Membership card in a jumper's pocket make that person a better or safer jumper, HELL NO! Not one bit! Never made any difference to me! I've even done several Demo's without a membership, actually, more without than with, when I filed the event with the FAA, they NEVER asked, nor cared! I do 100% agree that the fear of the legal system has a overbearing effect and causes self imposed age restrictions by DZO's, but if a 10 year old can ride a roller coaster provided they meet the height requirements, why would skydiving be any different. If an individual can PROPERLY fit in the harness, where's the problem? I have PERSONALLY been on a load with a 12 year doing a Tandem, YES, I did say 12! And I can assure you that this individual was not in any more danger than a 16, 18, or even a 50 year old. The TI REQUIRED that the 12 year fit the harness properly before he agreed to take the 12 year old for the jump. A factor that we do have to recognize is state laws, There may be some state laws that prevent underagers from participating in certain activities, but if a law is focused only on skydiving, I would think that it could be challenged as descriminating against a certain venue. Unless something has changed recently, a person has to be 19 to jump at Skydive Alabama, when I asked why, the DZO at the time told me that it was due to the Alabama State law. I was going to pick your post apart, but I found no need to, you are absolutely correct! Although, I don't know about your demo stuff that you described, you are correct on everything else. I do believe there are some good benefits to being a uspa member, both individually and group member, but I agree that it doesn't make you a superior skydiver over a non member. I keep my membership current simply because I don't like to hit snags when I visit a new dz. And Mr Quade, you are getting beat down! You REALLY need to get a reality check! Just sayin! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #43 June 18, 2012 I've even done several Demo's without a membership, actually, more without than with, when I filed the event with the FAA, they NEVER asked, nor cared! Quote Yup, however they can ask you to demonstrate your skills which could be a logistical problem. The best reason to jump through the USPA demo hoops is the insurance, doing a larger venue event often requires you to have it in place, it's just not cost effective to attempt to self-insure. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #44 June 18, 2012 Mike Mullins is a member of USPA, his DZ in not a group member dz. As a member of USPA Mike is allowed to run for and hold a BOD seat. And for the record, it's my understanding, one of the main reasons his DZ is not a group member dz, is so that his kids could jump there without violations of the BSR's and that was one of the main reasons. Mr. Mullins can't correct me if I'm wrong on that understanding. Some non USPA dz's are just fine. Others though have been kicked out of the USPA for life because of their long proven history of doing really bad shit. A. O. Ohio.........you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottd818 0 #45 June 18, 2012 go to skydive taft in socal they will take you care of you!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #46 June 18, 2012 QuoteYou need to reread what they each wrote then once again consult the USPA BSRs. Excuse me.... Paul, your reading comprehension needs improvement. Both Mike and I said that 16 & 17 yo can jump without a FB waiver. I mentioned that the FB waiver is needed for under 16 yo. Mike did not address that issue. The only thing that Mike said, that I disagree with was that at one time, many years ago, the BSRs read 'age of majority'. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sacex250 0 #47 June 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote QuoteD. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Think about what you are reading. Point a. is saying that the 18yr old age limit is waiver able Point b. is saying that the age or need for parental or guardian consent is waiver able. Point A would be waiverable for an emancipated or married minor who has full legal adult rights. Point B would be waiverable for a minor under the age of 16 who has parental consent. A dependent minor shouldn't be able to get a waiver without parental consent. There are emancipated 16 yr olds. In California, minors can be emancipated at age 14 which would allow them to sign their own liability waivers, but they would, according to the BSRs, have to get a waiver from the full board. But then they'd have to go find a DZO who would allow them jump. It's too bad the BSRs only seem to work in one direction, against the individual members, while the DZOs get to enforce the rules any way they like. And don't get me started on the manufacturers using USPA to enforce age limits on tandem passengers.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1888 0 #48 June 18, 2012 me.... Paul, your reading comprehension needs improvement. Both Mike and I said that 16 & 17 yo can jump without a FB waiver. I mentioned that the FB waiver is needed for under 16 yo. Mike did not address that issue. The only thing that Mike said, that I disagree with was that at one time, many years ago, the BSRs read 'age of majority'. _______________________________________________ OK all you youngsters out there, here is the scoop. Mike is not as old as I & wasn't in the sport when I started, however, on this point, he is correct. I began jumping in 1961 when I was a 19 year old Marine. I had to get a waiver signed by my parent. As I read all the bullshit being posted here I recalled the waiver but was unsure if it was the local clubs regulation or something else. So I looked in my 51 year old log book which posted the BSR's as they existed then. Here it is 4. Age: Civilian parachutists and student parachutists must be 21 years of age or at least 16 years of age with written parental consent. FYI the total BSR's as they existed at that time under the PCA fit entirely on both sides one sheet of paper. It was orange in color, tri folded & distributed to the membership. It was all we needed then & could likely be used today if it wasn't for the lawyers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skylawgirl84 0 #49 June 18, 2012 In Oklahoma a 16 year old can do a tandem with parental consent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crotalus01 0 #50 June 19, 2012 I jump at Mike's dropzone so I am very much aware that it is currently non-GM. I am genuinely curious if you still believe your interpretation of the BSRs is correct (meaning Mike and Jan are wrong in their interpretation)? And if so then what you have to refute their interpretation? As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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stratostar 5 #44 June 18, 2012 Mike Mullins is a member of USPA, his DZ in not a group member dz. As a member of USPA Mike is allowed to run for and hold a BOD seat. And for the record, it's my understanding, one of the main reasons his DZ is not a group member dz, is so that his kids could jump there without violations of the BSR's and that was one of the main reasons. Mr. Mullins can't correct me if I'm wrong on that understanding. Some non USPA dz's are just fine. Others though have been kicked out of the USPA for life because of their long proven history of doing really bad shit. A. O. Ohio.........you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottd818 0 #45 June 18, 2012 go to skydive taft in socal they will take you care of you!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #46 June 18, 2012 QuoteYou need to reread what they each wrote then once again consult the USPA BSRs. Excuse me.... Paul, your reading comprehension needs improvement. Both Mike and I said that 16 & 17 yo can jump without a FB waiver. I mentioned that the FB waiver is needed for under 16 yo. Mike did not address that issue. The only thing that Mike said, that I disagree with was that at one time, many years ago, the BSRs read 'age of majority'. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #47 June 18, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote QuoteD. Age requirements 1. Skydivers are to be at least EITHER: a. 18 years of age [FB] b. 16 years of age with notarized parental or guardian consent [FB] Think about what you are reading. Point a. is saying that the 18yr old age limit is waiver able Point b. is saying that the age or need for parental or guardian consent is waiver able. Point A would be waiverable for an emancipated or married minor who has full legal adult rights. Point B would be waiverable for a minor under the age of 16 who has parental consent. A dependent minor shouldn't be able to get a waiver without parental consent. There are emancipated 16 yr olds. In California, minors can be emancipated at age 14 which would allow them to sign their own liability waivers, but they would, according to the BSRs, have to get a waiver from the full board. But then they'd have to go find a DZO who would allow them jump. It's too bad the BSRs only seem to work in one direction, against the individual members, while the DZOs get to enforce the rules any way they like. And don't get me started on the manufacturers using USPA to enforce age limits on tandem passengers.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1888 0 #48 June 18, 2012 me.... Paul, your reading comprehension needs improvement. Both Mike and I said that 16 & 17 yo can jump without a FB waiver. I mentioned that the FB waiver is needed for under 16 yo. Mike did not address that issue. The only thing that Mike said, that I disagree with was that at one time, many years ago, the BSRs read 'age of majority'. _______________________________________________ OK all you youngsters out there, here is the scoop. Mike is not as old as I & wasn't in the sport when I started, however, on this point, he is correct. I began jumping in 1961 when I was a 19 year old Marine. I had to get a waiver signed by my parent. As I read all the bullshit being posted here I recalled the waiver but was unsure if it was the local clubs regulation or something else. So I looked in my 51 year old log book which posted the BSR's as they existed then. Here it is 4. Age: Civilian parachutists and student parachutists must be 21 years of age or at least 16 years of age with written parental consent. FYI the total BSR's as they existed at that time under the PCA fit entirely on both sides one sheet of paper. It was orange in color, tri folded & distributed to the membership. It was all we needed then & could likely be used today if it wasn't for the lawyers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skylawgirl84 0 #49 June 18, 2012 In Oklahoma a 16 year old can do a tandem with parental consent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #50 June 19, 2012 I jump at Mike's dropzone so I am very much aware that it is currently non-GM. I am genuinely curious if you still believe your interpretation of the BSRs is correct (meaning Mike and Jan are wrong in their interpretation)? And if so then what you have to refute their interpretation? As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
