Rigger?

[mark 107]

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Ok, to make sure I understand this...

In order for a reserve pack job to be Airworthy (legal to jump) it must be done by an appropriately rated rigger (not supervised by).

But a rigger may supervise a reserve packjob for training purposes, so that the person being supervised can meet the requirements to get the rating. And while that supervised packjob can be logged and counts toward rating requirements, it is not airworthy (and not legal to jump)

Not exactly.

There is no provision in the regulation for supervision of reserve pack jobs for any reason. The provision for supervision is limited to supervision of main pack jobs. That's what "in accordance with 105.43(a) and 105.45(b)(2)" means.

And of course I'm still waiting for the FAA (or someone else) to tell me what it means to supervise maintenance and alterations in accordance with a regulation that deals only with main parachute packing.

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, I'm in possession of a letter from the FAA that says that a main parachute is not a "type" (back, chest, seat, lap) of parachute. No explanation of what it means to supervise packing of types for which rated if only sport mains can be supervised.

Mark

[mark 107]

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Three things changed in 2001.

1...

2...

3. the screw up that included the word "alter" in 65.111 that was later removed.

As a result of the correction, 65.111 is still screwed up. It now conflicts with 65.125(c). 65.111 requires the rigger to be current when supervising main packs, 65.125(c) exempts the rigger from currency when supervising main packs.

Mark

[voilsb 1]

According to this

Quote

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

If I can pack or maintain any parachute for which I'm rated, and I can supervise others in packing any type of parachute for which I'm rated ... then does it not stand to reason that others can pack any type of parachute for which I am rated, if under my supervision?

Brian

[sundevil777 102]

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A certificated master parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

This does seem black and white - it allows supervised reserve pack jobs to be jumped. How could it be interpreted differently?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[faulk04 0]

that's what I thought too, but I guess you could say it breaks and it doesn't say for use? (Even though it doesn't say you can't either )

Sec. 65.111 Certificate required

(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with Secs. 65.127 through 65.133.

[rifleman 70]

As I understand it (bearing in mind I'm a noob and know nothing), in the UK there are 4 distinct grades relating to the packing of parachutes. These are:

Packer

After attending a packing course, doing 10 supervised repacks and a packing test may pack main parachutes (but only those mains, containers and deployment systems listed on the packing certificate) ie: If your packing certificate says that you've been signed off for Javelin H/C, Skymaster main using S/L deployment and nothing else then that is all you can pack until you've been effectively type certified for another container/main/method of deployment.

Advanced Packer

After a training course, can inspect and pack reserves, fit AAD's and do minor repairs (not involving sewing) such as replacing closing loops.

Rigger

After training can do repairs to reserve and main parachutes that involve a sewing machine eg patches etc but not major repairs and alterations to container/harness/canopy.

Advanced Rigger

Can make alterations and do major repairs to container/harness/canopy

Edit: Advanced packers cannot inspect and repack tandem reserves. That has to be done by a rigger.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[piisfish 140]

I kind of like that UK system. Thanks for the info, noob
Noobs can also teach stuff

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

According to this

Quote

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

If I can pack or maintain any parachute for which I'm rated, and I can supervise others in packing any type of parachute for which I'm rated ... then does it not stand to reason that others can pack any type of parachute for which I am rated, if under my supervision?

Yes, but the grey area exists in the ambiguity of the world "supervise". In particular (to this example), does it or does it not require some kind of hands-on by the supervising rigger, or is "eyes-only" supervision sufficient? I'm in the business of interpreting this kind of gobbledygook, and I have to tell you: no matter how hard I squint at it, I'm really not sure.

The solution is not to keep quibbling over it, for reasonable and very knowledgeable people will continue to disagree. The key is for The Powers That Be to draft a specific definition of the word "supervise" for the purpose of that rule, just as is often done when laws or regulations are drafted.

"For the purpose of this section, "supervise" shall mean....."

[masterrigger1 2]

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A certificated master parachute rigger may—

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This does seem black and white - it allows supervised reserve pack jobs to be jumped. How could it be interpreted differently?

Easily if you read 65.111 which offers zero provisions for supervision of reserve pack jobs for use,

The reg you posted is from 65.125 which is "privileges".

It states that you can supervise, but never states you can with regards to gear "for Use" because it can't.

65.11 already has that covered as it states that reserves "for use" has to be packed by a certifed rigger.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mark 107]

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The reg you posted is from 65.125 which is "privileges".

It states that you can supervise, but never states you can with regards to gear "for Use" because it can't.

MEL

Actually, what 65.125 says is that supervision is limited to main parachutes. There's no provision for supervising reserve parachute packing, for packs toward a rigger ticket or for anything else.

Mark

[masterrigger1 2]

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Actually, what 65.125 says is that supervision is limited to main parachutes. There's no provision for supervising reserve parachute packing, for packs toward a rigger ticket or for anything else.

You are absolutely right on that!

1. Reserve repacks "not for use" are not governed by the FAA because they are not supposed to be in an airplane.

An applicant has to have completed 20 pack jobs under the supervison of a certified rigger to be eligible for a certificate. The rule never states that the required 20 have to be "for use" again because 65.111 makes that impossible.

The allowance and the requirement of supervision for reserves is provided here though:

Except as provided in §65.117, an applicant for a senior parachute rigger certificate must—

(a) Present evidence satisfactory to the Administrator that he has packed at least 20 parachutes of each type for which he seeks a rating, in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and under the supervision of a certificated parachute rigger holding a rating for that type or a person holding an appropriate military rating;



MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[faulk04 0]

where does it state supervision is limited to main parachutes only in 65.125? Am I missing something?

Or does it go back to 65.111?


ec. 65.125 Certificates: Privileges

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may--

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may--

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with Secs. 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping.

[mark 107]

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where does it state supervision is limited to main parachutes only in 65.125? Am I missing something?

Or does it go back to 65.111?


ec. 65.125 Certificates: Privileges

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may--

(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may--

(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and

(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with Secs. 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping.

You answer is in the bolded sections.

The bolded sections might have been intended as an extension of privileges to specifically include main parachute packing, but the literal meaning is a restriction of privileges to only main parachutes.

I am still hopeful the FAA (or someone in close contact with them) will be able to tell me what it means to supervise work on the types I'm rated for, and in what way "supervise" is different than "train" or "instruct."

Mark

[pchapman 279]

Ah very interesting point Mark.

So it says a rigger can supervise anything they are rated on, "in accordance with" rules that say, for example, "The main parachute must have been packed within 180 days before the date of its use" etc.

As you point out, that does make it seem like supervision is about mains only.

Yet one can interpret it the other way too, that supervising a reserve pack job is "in accordance with" any rule about mains, because when you supervise a reserve pack job, there is no main involved.

It would be the same if they said you may supervise anything you are rated for, in accordance with "All dogs must remain on a leash", or "Main parachutes must be colored purple." Supervising a reserve pack job in no way breaks those rules.

Thus one interpretation is that a rigger can supervise reserves!!

I really wish the FAA would freaking tell us what they really want.

(I know the issue of FAA interpretations of supervision came up earlier, but it still isn't entirely clear what they want.)