diablopilot 2 #51 April 20, 2012 QuoteQuote That is the type of behavior that I am saying needs to stop. I've seen things like that happen more than a few times around here. Thank you, I've said similar things in the past although I highly doubt anything will change. Why do you think it should be the way YOU want it to be?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GobbleGobble 0 #52 April 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote That is the type of behavior that I am saying needs to stop. I've seen things like that happen more than a few times around here. Thank you, I've said similar things in the past although I highly doubt anything will change. Why do you think it should be the way YOU want it to be? Well that argument certainly works both ways. There is a difference between communicating bluntly and being aggressive. From the outset taking an argumentative or disrespectful tone will do little to ensure that your message will in any way be received. Certainly tone doesn't translate all that well to text. Sometimes you need to beat someone over the head but it's not exactly a good way to start the conversation. If the purpose of commenting is to provide guidance that is one thing. A fair amount of the time posts here are less about communicating and more about dogpiling/being superior. If someone isn't listening than being an ass on an internet forum isn't going to correct that behavior (most likely). The other thing to consider is what effect your posting has on other readers. When you come off like a dick you're very likely tainting your message to someone who is in no way involved but could learn a great deal. What about anything I've written here is outrageous or inconceivable to you? I'm not going to shed a tear over anything someone posts here that is mean or snide. But it makes you less effective. As an instructor I'd hope your priorities are elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #53 April 20, 2012 Quote Quote The point that I got from John's post (in the other thread) was that the bullying was derived from the incessant pack mentality... not the mere fact that some harsh words were spoken/written. ... and if that was in fact his point, I for one agree with him. I agree with your take. I think people here are missing the point of what John said. I have no problem with people being told hard truths and I think that the approach Chuck took with the velo guy was correct. I don't think I've ever seen Dave 'bully' but he's sure posted some stinging criticisms. Honestly more people should model their online posting behaviour. Far to many up-jumpers on here post without actually reading and so they simply post their standard mantra. What? English your second language or something? Don't know the difference in usage for to, too and two? Shhhesh. Oh wait....you've been subjugated by that Aussie Arsehole crowd. Never mind. Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro Matty told Hatty about a thing she saw. Had two big horns and a wooly jaw. Wooly bully, wooly bully.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #54 April 20, 2012 Quote Quote Quote The point that I got from John's post (in the other thread) was that the bullying was derived from the incessant pack mentality... not the mere fact that some harsh words were spoken/written. ... and if that was in fact his point, I for one agree with him. I agree with your take. I think people here are missing the point of what John said. I have no problem with people being told hard truths and I think that the approach Chuck took with the velo guy was correct. I don't think I've ever seen Dave 'bully' but he's sure posted some stinging criticisms. Honestly more people should model their online posting behaviour. Far to many up-jumpers on here post without actually reading and so they simply post their standard mantra. What? English your second language or something? Don't know the difference in usage for to, too and two? Shhhesh. Oh wait....you've been subjugated by that Aussie Arsehole crowd. Never mind. Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro Matty told Hatty about a thing she saw. Had two big horns and a wooly jaw. Wooly bully, wooly bully. My english sucks - I grew up in the African bush. But you've got to agree that Dave's posts are about the most consistent and devoid of bashing.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #55 April 20, 2012 "Sir, your whining about being entitled to a nicer approach interferes with my being entitled to act like a dick". "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #56 April 20, 2012 Quote just to preface i dont have thousands of jumps and dont pretend to know everything there is to know, but i think anyone with experience can offer help when it comes to something safety related. for example a lower jump jumper ended up not following pull priorities last weekend and kept trying to break off from someone who had lost alt awareness instead of getting to a point where it was too low and just pulling. all ended well but she maintained that she knew is wasnt good but it was distracting having them there not breaking off. i replied to it with "you know whats really distracting?" and she said "what?" and i finished up with "hitting the ground." she then realized that it was more than just a simple thing then and really reflected on it. i think that got the point across better than something to the effect of "what the hell are you thinking?!" etc. but like i said thats just my two cents and im sure the other approach works just fine in some cases. It's great that you take the responsibility of saying somethin about what is evidently a dangerous scenario. However, your approach just might not be as touchy feely as you think. If the jumper already realised she screwed up bigtime, you might have accomplished nothing except make her feel even worse to make yourself feel better. After all, you saw something scary like two inexperienced jumper smoking it low. Understandable, but perhaps unnecessary. Quarterbacking from my comfortable armchair, I'd first have reviewed pull priorities. Next, I'd followed it up with basic FS-safety, such as plan the dive, dive the plan. After that I'd have told her that turning away and tracking is a strong signal to the other person that they should check their alti. If all else fails - if you're 'suddenly' at 1500 ft for instance, just get something over your head. Another strong signal that the FS-part is over. Of course, all depends on the interaction with and attitude of the student. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #57 April 20, 2012 Quote My english sucks - I grew up in the African bush. But you've got to agree that Dave's posts are about the most consistent and devoid of bashing. Meh...Dave can take care of himself right well. But back to the main topic of this conversation.... Evidently neither you nor Ian Drennan can speak proper English*. On the other hand, when you were here, I had no trouble understanding anything you mumbled. Wot?!? *(vague reference to another thread where Ian got hilariously bashed for language skills.)My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutem 0 #58 April 20, 2012 One thing I've noticed is that most of the so called bullies have their names or info in their profiles that make it easy to ID them in the real world. Can't really say the same for the majority of the "I've got the skills to handle it" crowd. It's almost like the internet tough guy thing in reverse. James Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #59 April 20, 2012 Not my nature. I learned more from SF Instructors who 'taught' and 'instructed' than the Drill Sgts who yelled and intimidated. Personally, I don't like the dickhead method, but if that is what you are ... just not me. Lots of ways to teach students and newbs. I prefer to use what come natural to me. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #60 April 20, 2012 +1"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #61 April 20, 2012 QuoteNot my nature. I learned more from SF Instructors who 'taught' and 'instructed' than the Drill Sgts who yelled and intimidated. Personally, I don't like the dickhead method, but if that is what you are ... just not me. Lots of ways to teach students and newbs. I prefer to use what come natural to me. Neither am I. I started this thread as a not so serious pisstake, in response to the names we were called on the velo thread.... I couldn't have successfully trained the thousands of first jumpers I have without knowing how to do it properly. My degree is in Education, and I know a bit about effective instructional methods and how people absorb information. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat though.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #62 April 20, 2012 There is a reason for the so called bullying. It's because those that are accused have been there and done that! We've seen the maneuver started and known that the jumper is in a whole world of hurt well before they did. Sometimes we have been running long before the impact. We have seen our friends body lying on the ground, piss blood and shit coming from every orifice making grunting sounds as they drown in their own blood (Thanks to whoever wrote this on DZ.com) We have frantically tried to keep our friends alive until emergency services arrive, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not. We have helped load our friend's body onto the gurney. We have been interrogated by the police. We've then made all the sad phone calls that need to be made. we've carried the coffins and the grief. There are those of us on this forum that have scrubbed the blood and guts off of the rig. So the reason for the perceived bullying tone is this: WE DON'T LIKE IT AND DON'T WANT TO DO IT AGAIN! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #63 April 20, 2012 QuoteThere is a reason for the so called bullying. It's because those that are accused have been there and done that! We've seen the maneuver started and known that the jumper is in a whole world of hurt well before they did. Sometimes we have been running long before the impact. We have seen our friends body lying on the ground, piss blood and shit coming from every orifice making grunting sounds as the drown in their own blood (Thanks to whoever wrote this on DZ.com) We have frantically tried to keep our friends alive until emergency services arrive, sometimes succeeding and sometimes not. We have helped load our friend's body onto the gurney. We have been interrogated by the police. We've then made all the sad phone calls that need to be made. we've carried the coffins and the grief. There are those of us on this forum that have scrubbed the blood and guts off of the rig. So the reason for the perceived bullying tone is this: WE DON'T LIKE IT AND DON'T WANT TO DO IT AGAIN! Careful Richard, there are some sensitive souls out there who just know that skydiving isn't really like that....is it???. You might upset them..... And the bulletproof ones.....don't forget them. It doesn't apply to them, because they just have the most amazing mad skillz....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ghost47 18 #64 April 20, 2012 Both sides have a point. Look at it from the perspective of a newbie: he's found this great new sport, he's having the time of his life, he shares some of his exuberance with one of the experienced jumpers he looks up to. "You think you're hot shit, huh? Well, you're gonna die unless you stop being an idiot!" he gets back. How does he react? How would most of us instinctively react? On the other hand, look at it from the perspective of an experienced jumper: year after year, he's seen people do unsafe things without thinking about the potential bad consequences. Not understanding the gravity of the sport, and how things can go from great to beyond fucked in a blink of an eye. He's witnessed and had to clean up what's left of human bodies -- sometimes his friends -- and is tired of doing it. Whenever he's spoken out in a friendly manner to someone who is doing something unsafe, he is ignored, or brushed off. Sometimes, though, when he raises his voice, at least people appear to understand that this is not a discussion about why pink and purple skydiving gear is verboten, but an actual, serious discussion about safety. How does he react when he sees someone new doing that same stupid thing yet again? Do you think some of his frustration comes through? So, new people, I think we need to work harder to have thicker skin, and, no matter what the tone, to consider the content of what is said. Ultimately, it is our bodies and our minds at risk, and to ignore good advice because it is given contemptuously is the height of stupidity. Experienced people, though I'm sure we newbies try your patience some, please try to remember that not all of us have had the friendly approach given to us before, or at least not with an explanation of what can happen. So, though I'm sure it's tedious, it might help the message to try the friendly approach first. And if it turns out the guy's a DGIT, then escalate the approach. My $0.02 as a not-quite-new, not-quite-experienced jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #65 April 20, 2012 QuoteLook at it from the perspective of a newbie: he's found this great new sport, he's having the time of his life, he shares some of his exuberance with one of the experienced jumpers he looks up to. "You think you're hot shit, huh? Well, you're gonna die unless you stop being an idiot!" he gets back. I know very few mentors who would act like that on the first run. Yes, there are some. None in DZ.com that I know of. QuoteHow does he react? Type A) Damn! I must have screwed up good! Let me learn from this ass-chewing, or Type B) Fuck you asshole I'm not gonna listen to a word you say. It's a matter of level of maturity. Simple as that. QuoteHow would most of us instinctively react? I dunno. I'm type A.Well, I have to qualify that and say that there were two that set me off. Apparently, there are a helluva lot of Type Bs there and that's sad. Yes, most prefer the soft touch and that's fine. Most of the Type Bs aren't going to listen to rhyme or reason anyway no matter how you put it....we see it all too often. This thread was about one of those. Sangi was another. QuoteSo, new people, I think we need to work harder to have thicker skin, and, no matter what the tone, to consider the content of what is said. Ultimately, it is our bodies and our minds at risk, and to ignore good advice because it is given contemptuously is the height of stupidity. +1 and well said!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #66 April 21, 2012 QuoteI learned more from SF Instructors who 'taught' and 'instructed' than the Drill Sgts who yelled and intimidated. On the first day? Sure. When things have been going well and you made an honest mistake? Of course, 100%. What about the soldiers who won't stop playing games with the hand grenades? They know it's wrong, and have been told it's wrong, but there still in the bunker playing 'hot potato' with a live grenade because they 'know' they have 5 seconds, and there's nothing to worry about for the first 3 seconds anyway. How do you handle those guys? How you respond to someones actions have a lot to do with the action itself. The frequency, severity, surrounding factors, premeditation, etc, all contribute to which method you use, and sometimes it's not Mr. Nice Guy. For the record, when you talk about instuction, this is never the way to address a student. They don't know because they're new and haven't had a chance to learn the ropes, and that's what an instructor is for, to show them. When dealing with licesned jumpers who have been informed, warned and flat out told not to do something and proceed to do it anyway in those cases I call 'no holds barred', and have at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #67 April 21, 2012 Dave, I have no problem with you doing that. I simply said, it wasn't "my way," and I have learned from both types of instruction/correction. I prefer a different approach than yours ... "different" not "better." steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #68 April 21, 2012 QuoteI prefer a different approach than yours ... "different" not "better." Yeah, but you are automatically pigeonholing him as someone who only has one approach, which is "different to yours",. He clearly has a variety of approaches, and uses the Sgt Major approach only as a last resort....as do most of us...,My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #69 April 21, 2012 Quote Quote I prefer a different approach than yours ... "different" not "better." Yeah, but you are automatically pigeonholing him as someone who only has one approach, which is "different to yours",. He clearly has a variety of approaches, and uses the Sgt Major approach only as a last resort....as do most of us..., Well, I wasn't trying to do that; sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was simply I prefer to treat ALL students with respect. Just because they (students/newbs) will not change their nature doesn't necessitate me to change mine. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #70 April 21, 2012 QuoteWell, I wasn't trying to do that; sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was simply I prefer to treat ALL students with respect. Just because they (students/newbs) will not change their nature doesn't necessitate me to change mine. No probs...... I doubt if there are many instructors anywhere who would act the Sgt Major with students. That approach is prolly employed a bit more on 50 - 200 jump level jumpers. IMO thats when they are feeling really invincible and will try all sorts of stupid stuff. Once they get past that level they normally calm down a little and really start to think about what they are doing. But not always....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tatetatetate 0 #71 April 21, 2012 That assumes that all advice has equal weight and all advice is good advice. Which is it not! I've had contradictory words given to me between rival DZs. And sometimes DZs are motivated to give you 'inaccurate advice' to maximise their revenue. A big sticking point for example is my rig vs renting theirs. When I knew no better I was 'unsafe' because I landed in a hedge around jump 18. 60 jumps later this was STILL used as an example of my shitty canopy handling. Strange how I can stay aloft on a paraglider for a very long time. I defect elsewhere and strangely I am allowed to jump my own considerably smaller rig. Therefore what was happening? I also pass things I was 'unsafe' on at this newer DZ. Ha the worst piece of advice was to stick with the BPA for so long. I jump elsewhere and enjoy it considerably more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #72 April 21, 2012 Quote Post: That assumes that all advice has equal weight and all advice is good advice. Which is it not! I've had contradictory words given to me between rival DZs. And sometimes DZs are motivated to give you 'inaccurate advice' to maximise their revenue. A big sticking point for example is my rig vs renting theirs. When I knew no better I was 'unsafe' because I landed in a hedge around jump 18. 60 jumps later this was STILL used as an example of my shitty canopy handling. Strange how I can stay aloft on a paraglider for a very long time. I defect elsewhere and strangely I am allowed to jump my own considerably smaller rig. Therefore what was happening? I also pass things I was 'unsafe' on at this newer DZ. Ha the worst piece of advice was to stick with the BPA for so long. I jump elsewhere and enjoy it considerably more. There was your problem right there. The BPA, and some of the guys running the DZ's there are some of the most retarded I've seen, anywhere in the world... Anything and everything you can think of that could be done to make skydiving a negative experience, they practise. You can choose nearly anywhere else in the world to jump, and it'll be better. BPA, and UK skydiving is not typical, at all.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #73 April 22, 2012 QuoteQuoteWell, I wasn't trying to do that; sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was simply I prefer to treat ALL students with respect. Just because they (students/newbs) will not change their nature doesn't necessitate me to change mine. No probs...... I doubt if there are many instructors anywhere who would act the Sgt Major with students. . you would be VERY wrong then. Seen it 1st hand and dont visit that DZ anymore.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #74 April 22, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Well, I wasn't trying to do that; sorry for the misunderstanding. My point was simply I prefer to treat ALL students with respect. Just because they (students/newbs) will not change their nature doesn't necessitate me to change mine. No probs...... I doubt if there are many instructors anywhere who would act the Sgt Major with students. . you would be VERY wrong then. Seen it 1st hand and dont visit that DZ anymore. That wouldn't be because the Sgt Major marched you off would it?We had a couple back when I first started jumping in Zimbabwe. But they were ex military men who hadn't really understood the difference between army recruits and people paying them to learn.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #75 April 22, 2012 Quote I doubt if there are many instructors anywhere who would act the Sgt Major with students. Quote you would be VERY wrong then. Seen it 1st hand and dont visit that DZ anymore. So what's so wrong about having doubts? What's so wrong about having doubts that there are many? Your one example negates neither the doubting nor the quantifier of "many".My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
