jhh166 0 #1 April 9, 2012 I hear alot about "unless it is an intentional cutaway rig" How and where can I practice with one? Thanks in advance!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #2 April 9, 2012 Call UPT and JUMPSHACK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jhh166 0 #3 April 10, 2012 So they have a sport rig for this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #4 April 10, 2012 Yes. With 3 canopies. Intentional cutaways on UPT rig were available to anyone during the last Vector Festival. Cost was 75 Euros total for the jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #5 April 10, 2012 With only a few jumps, if your profile is accurate, you'll need to clock up a few more jumps before anyone will let you near such a rig though. If you hang around the sport long enough you could well experience a cutaway for real. Its always on the cards.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jayrech 0 #6 April 11, 2012 Im curious what the reasoning behind making a person "clock up a few more jumps" before being allowed to go through there EP's in a semi controlled situation? In my eyes this is a perfect training tool and should be apart of AFF, or at least being a prerequisite for Upgrading from solo to A license. As you have very obviously stated, its in the cards for every one.D.S 174.2 Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #7 April 11, 2012 >Im curious what the reasoning behind making a person "clock up a few >more jumps" before being allowed to go through there EP's in a semi >controlled situation? Because intentional cutaway rigs malfunction too, and have a third (completely different) system for deploying the "real" reserve - and you have to train for all three deployment systems. That might be a bit much for an AFF student. Also, you really want to train an AFF student how to handle a three-out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jayrech 0 #8 April 11, 2012 I understand there is an obvious added element of complexity to the whole picture. AFF students/ first jump students are trained and trusted to go through the EP's we have in place if the situation arrises. Dealing with a 3 out could be easily remedied with a "student" set up. No matter which handle you pull in what order will initiate the EP's in the order in which they are designed to operate in. I had the opportunity to jump the Tridem rig and it was a learning experience I will never forget. How ever, we did not pack a malfunction into the primary canopy but that opportunity is there. As for the handles and there location, the tridem was set up to mimic a tandem rig. Handles in locations according to. This in my own opinion had forced me to look and locate my handles before use, Like we drill into the heads of the students. I just fail to see the reasoning behind keeping a tool such as this available to only those who are wanting to get that "cutaway" under there belts before there tandem rating. Just my .02D.S 174.2 Be careful what you say. Some one might take it the right way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #9 April 11, 2012 QuoteIm curious what the reasoning behind making a person "clock up a few more jumps" before being allowed to go through there EP's in a semi controlled situation? In my eyes this is a perfect training tool and should be apart of AFF, or at least being a prerequisite for Upgrading from solo to A license. As you have very obviously stated, its in the cards for every one. 'before being allowed to go through there EP's in a semi controlled situation' ~Because they're not going through their 'normal' EP's, they are learning an entirely new system of proceedures, and adding unneeded complexity. If one wants to practice their EP's, do it in a hanging harness...not with a planet coming at ya high speed. Doing an intentional cutaway with a 3 parachute system is more of a stunt than EP practice. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #10 April 11, 2012 >No matter which handle you pull in what order will initiate the EP's in the >order in which they are designed to operate in. So if you pulled the second main cutaway handle it would "lock out" the second main cutaway system and instead cut away the first main? And if you got into trouble and tried to deploy the reserve at 800 feet - it wouldn't let you because you hadn't deployed the main yet? You'd need a little computer to make all those decisions, and the failure possibilities are pretty nasty to consider. I don't think I'd want any of my students to use such a rig. Too much to go wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #11 April 11, 2012 QuoteI don't think I'd want any of my students to use such a rig. Too much to go wrong. True. World champion Rob Harris was killed jumping a 3-canopy rig... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #12 April 11, 2012 You've had most of the answers as to why its not a good idea. EP's are drilled into people so they should become almost automatic responses when a problem occurs. This is why first jump training incorporates a lot of EP drills. In a stress situation, the simpler and more practised the drills, the more likely there will be a good outcome. Changing that, especially early in a jump career is a bad move, because it is easy to revert to your original drills when adrenalin kicks in, and that is likely to have bad consequences. One of the common factors in quite a few fatalities is a recent change in equipment with different EP's. History tells us its a bad idea, and its a lesson hard learnt. Thats why it is necessary to have a "few more jumps" under your belt.....in fact, a lot more jumps.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #13 April 11, 2012 QuoteI just fail to see the reasoning behind keeping a tool such as this available to only those who are wanting to get that "cutaway" under there belts before there tandem rating. Let's keep in mind that the majority of tandem malfunctions are very docile, low-speed mals like tension knots or stuck brakes. Even a line-over on a lightly loaded tandem is not a high-speed affair, and unless the TI is a total jackass, they all happen at 4500ft+, so time is also not a big factor. The end result is a mal that you have time to cutaway from in a calm and controlled fashion, very similar to cutting away from a good canopy on an intentional cutaway rig. A sport jumper, on the other hand, is probably looking at a much different scenario when it comes to malfunction with their higher WL, and lower pull altitudes, so the intentional cutaway rig is not as realistic. Beyond that, the big reason it's not realistic is that it's a planned event, not an actual 'emergency'. Everyone knows how to pull handles, it's not that hard. The hard part is being able to do it, and the desison making process behind it, under extreme stress with your life literally on the line. Again, no intentional cutaway rig is going to replicate that. If you consider the time and cost of doing an intentional cutaway, I would think a new jumper would be better served my making a days worth of regular jumps as opposed to the intentional cutaway. It would take the better part of a day to train, jump, and retrieve the 'lost' parts, and cost upwards of $100 including the slot. They could use that time/money to make 4 jumps, which for a newbie is just about a full day at the DZ. There are more pressing skills they should be developing as opposed to learning to do a 'stunt' jump like an intentional cutaway. In time, maybe after 100 jumps, it's not a bad idea if the jumper is so inclined, but before hand it seems like an unneccesary risk, and a waste of time and resources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jhh166 0 #14 April 11, 2012 QuoteIf you consider the time and cost of doing an intentional cutaway, I would think a new jumper would be better served my making a days worth of regular jumps as opposed to the intentional cutaway. It would take the better part of a day to train, jump, and retrieve the 'lost' parts, and cost upwards of $100 including the slot. They could use that time/money to make 4 jumps, which for a newbie is just about a full day at the DZ. Thanks for the replies and guidance. I received a nice PM with the pro’s and con’s and it was very persuasive and stated to continue practicing EP’s on the ground in a hanging harness and to ask riggers if I can pull handles on reserve repacks. Also, the money aspect makes a lot of sense as well. Once again thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeJD 0 #15 April 11, 2012 Quote If you hang around the sport long enough you could well will experience a cutaway for real. Fixed it for ya. Joking aside, I wonder what's the highest number of jumps anyone has achieved without ever having cut away. I bet there aren't many people with more than a couple of thousand who are still Plan B virgins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #16 April 11, 2012 Answer is here, 15 000 jumps: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1499051#1499051 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #17 April 11, 2012 My old room mate quit jumping with 5500 and never had a malfunction. I'm sure there are others out there, I'm on the other side with 14 cut-aways in 3900 jumps... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #18 April 11, 2012 Below is the PM that I sent to the OP, which he found persuasive. Given the direction that this discussion has turned, I am putting it here too: ----------------- John: At your jump numbers (assuming your profile is correct) I would suggest that you will get FAR more out of time spent with a coach or instructor at the training harness than you will out of an intentional cutaway. Another useful activity is working with a rigger to pull handles on a rig which is about to have the reserve re-packed. Drawbacks to an intentional cutaway: -cost is typically significant (gear rental (possibly gear shipping) plus lift ticket). -you are likely to get only one or two jumps. -very real risk of things going badly with the intentional cutaway...(unlikely but not zero). -at your jump numbers it is unlikely that anyone will let you do this now. Advantages of practice in training harness -you can easily do MANY cycles of problem identification and EP. -zero risk -cheap.... it will probably only cost you . -You get to incorporate problem recognition as well as the EP "hand jive". -Many DZ's have a simulator which lets you feel the actual force necessary for cutaway on a rig. (It is not very much). Advantages of working with rigger to pull handles of REAL rig on the ground. -cheap.... it will probably only cost you . -zero risk -you can feel the actual pull forces for reserve activation. -it gives you time with a rigger...a great learning opportunity. -it gives you a chance to see a reserve up close and understand how it is constructed. Differences from mains such as free bag and perhaps hand tacked toggles. You can see how the RSL (and possibly MARD) work. If you simply want the intentional cutaway for the adventure... prepare to be dissapointed. A non-spinning low speed cutaway from a normal main is BORING. There is very little difference from pulling handles on the ground (except for a brief period of freefall after the cutaway.) Blue Skies, The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #19 April 11, 2012 Pffffttt...chicken feed, I have a mate who got his A licence just with cutaways...now well on to qualifying for his B.... 36 cutaways and counting.....about 8000 jumps in total.... I only have 2, but I've ridden a couple into the ground that I shouldn't have.....always walked away...touch wood.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #20 April 11, 2012 Quote Pffffttt...chicken feed, I have a mate who got his A licence just with cutaways...now well on to qualifying for his B.... 36 cutaways and counting.....about 8000 jumps in total.... I only have 2, but I've ridden a couple into the ground that I shouldn't have.....always walked away...touch wood. I had a bad 1980's...free packin' a Unit with a frap strap into a Racer prolly wasn't the best idea I ever came up with. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #21 April 11, 2012 A Unit???. Meh!!!. I never heard anyone who had one say anything nice about them....they disappeard from the scene fairly quickly. A bit of a dog...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #22 April 11, 2012 Quote A Unit???. Meh!!!. I never heard anyone who had one say anything nice about them....they disappeard from the scene fairly quickly. A bit of a dog... They weren't too bad for the time, if ya could wait out the 2000' openings! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #23 April 11, 2012 QuoteThey weren't too bad for the time, if ya could wait out the 2000' openings! Glad I nver got one.....I would have been dead. Many times over. Stiuck with my old cloud (which I never did chop) till my Fury came along....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
