lintern 1 #1 October 10, 2005 I have done about 160 jumps on my Icarus Safire 2, 145. But yesterday I had an intersting and scary experience.... I deployed at 3500 ft and had a good canopy. Then I did one 360° spiral. I waited for about 5 seconds, then pulled down hard on my right toggle to do a 720° spiral. Half way through the second spiral (i.e. 360° + 180°) I felt myself 'out of synch' with the canopy. It was spiraling faster than my body was spiraling (or vice versa - I can't remember exactly) and the canopy felt like it was diving below me. I instantly knew it didn't feel right so instantly let the toggle back up. The canopy eventually leveled out and I got thrown about. It induced several twists but fortunately I managed to kick them out. For a second though I was almost ready to get off it because I had no idea what was happening but knew it definitely wasnt right. Im sure that if I had held the turn for any longer I would have been in serious trouble. Quite a few people on the ground saw what happened and said thats what happens when you do a "radical" turn. The DZ controller had a word with me and commented how I won't be doing that again. I weigh 10 stone (65kg) so I'm only loading the canopy at about 1.1. When I bought my rig 15 months ago other people always told me not to be afraid of pulling down hard on the steering toggle and have some fun. They all said that its completely safe and often used the term "bury the toggle". I have only been doing 720° spirals for about the last 3 months (I used to just do 360° spirals). I have watched other people do at least 5 consecutive spirals, so I was suprised when I nearly got into serious trouble yesterday. From that experience I now dont feel its safe to 'bury the toggle' or do more than one 360° spiral. But I would like to know for next time why it happened and how to avoid it. - Did I pull the toggle too far down ? - What is the safe limit to pull the toggle down to ? - Was it because I did more than one 360° spiral ? - Or was it the combination of all of these ? - Or is it to do with my wingloading (under loaded or over loaded ?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 October 10, 2005 Hopefully you'll get some more informed opinions but I wonder whether you managed to stall the right side of the canopy? I've induced twists by spiraling one way and then turning hard in the opposite direction, but never like you've described. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 October 10, 2005 Quote- Did I pull the toggle too far down ? - What is the safe limit to pull the toggle down to ? - Was it because I did more than one 360° spiral ? - Or was it the combination of all of these ? - Or is it to do with my wingloading (under loaded or over loaded ?) I think there aren't any rules like that. You should know the limits. How? Trying them. Open high and learn your wing. Control your canopy with smooth toggle movements. If you see the your canopy is turning faster than you release some breaks smoothly. IMHO it was not about your WL. I vote for line length. Longer lines - easier to spun up. You don't need a new line set, just feel your wing. Action - reaction. I'd start with slower turns first. Keep your canopy/lines under tension. Give some time to your canopy after a 180-360... turn before you start turning to the opposite side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #4 October 10, 2005 Like someone else said, I have found "problems" with turning fast one way, then fast the other... Good way to make line twists, as my coaches reminded me... I have never spun up on an aggressive spiral... Up high (way up there on a high pull), I have experimented a lot... By initiating the turn smoothly, then letting up smoothly, I have been in a spiral where I was looking straight down and the canopy was on the horizon, and the G-forces were so great that my feet felt full of blood, and I felt real heavy in my leg straps, and I started to get light headed and my vision narrowed and I lost some color, I figured it was time to fly level for a while... I did not count the revolutions, but I burned thru 3000' of elevation pretty quickly doing this, I bet 15 times around... I actually remember thinking, "if this is what a sprial feels like at low WL, what does high WL feel like." Not that I am advocating anyone do what I did without coaching and advice, I am simply illustrating that at 1.15 WL you still can spiral aggressively without spinning up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #5 October 10, 2005 But I would like to know for next time why it happened and how to avoid it. - Did I pull the toggle too far down ? Sounds lke you stalled 1/2 of the canopy. - What is the safe limit to pull the toggle down to ? Just before it stalls - Was it because I did more than one 360° spiral ? No, had nothing to do with it, you can do unlimited 360's with a canopy. - Or was it the combination of all of these ? Nope, just pulling a toggle down too far. - Or is it to do with my wingloading (under loaded or over loaded ?) No. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragonfyr 0 #6 October 10, 2005 I agree with Derek. Sounds like you pulled the toggle down too far. I do 720. 1080 and more on my Stiletto at a WL of 1.7 using toggles and never have a problem. When you start a turn, you should never have to bury a toggle. A proper turn should only have the toggle down 1/2 - 3/4. Once you are in the spiral, you can pull a little more, but should never have it buried. You should also do it gradually and never yank the toggle down fast thinking it will give you a more "radical" turn. Also, if you switch directions, you should be even more aware of not burying the opposite toggle. Next time, try initiating the 360 pulling only half way down. As the canopy starts to dive, then gradually pull down more (careful not to bury fully). As you play with this more and more you'll feel where the limits are of how fast you can pull down. Don Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 October 10, 2005 How far you can pull down a toggle is dependant on several things: Size of the canopy WL Where the toggle is attached to the lower steering line. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #8 October 10, 2005 Can you tell us how high you were 1. when you got into trouble and 2. when you got things back under control? Because, if you do things high enough that you can safely cut away and land if necessary, then doing "stupid stuff" like this is not so bad. My own "stupid canopy stuff" rule is to be done by 2,500 feet. I broke this rule once practicing stalls at either 2,000 or 1,500 feet. Flying a Sabre2 with two closed cells on one side approaching 1,000 feet trying to get reinflation was more excitement than I bargained for. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #9 October 10, 2005 Awhile ago, I did this as well. I was on my first jump on a 190Hornet, and I was entering the downwind leg of my pattern. As I got 90degree through the 180, I was on my back.. and before my canopy spun up I knew what was going on.. I took the two linetwists, luckly not pinching the steering line, and was out of the mess by 700 feet. It freggin sucked. Made good video.. but damn it. I'll never ever let myself get into that postion, again. Coupla things I was told... Fly your canopy, forget about toggle placement. Fly your canopy smoothly and effiecently... dont go straight to your side. Get there smoothly. Also linetension is key. Loose line tension and your liable to gift wrap yourself. On my video, you can clearly see a stalled left side, and then the canopy flying around it, no fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #10 October 10, 2005 - Did I pull the toggle too far down ? Sounds lke you stalled 1/2 of the canopy. Quote Should he be able to stall his canopy with out taking any raps? Maybe he needs to lengthen the control lines...??????? Not a riggerI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #11 October 10, 2005 Quote On my video, you can clearly see a stalled left side, and then the canopy flying around it, no fun. Is this video posted somewhere? I'd like to see that. Glad you got out of it okay. "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #12 October 10, 2005 Can you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher. And being under canopy at 13k gives you lot's of breathing room to see what you can and can't do under your canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #13 October 10, 2005 I spiralled into linetwists once (only a simple easy linetwist) sometime when I downsized to a 190. That was jump #29. Not as dramatic, it was only a half line twist and was above harddeck, but it sure taught me a lesson -- What it taught me is that I really need to know my canopy (stall point, how slowly and quickly I bury my toggle) before I do anything dramatic with it. Easing it down and easing it up, no sudden burying, no sudden releasing. And not below stall point which varies from canopy to canopy. Which is why you need to do things like test for it, just before stall point usually means end of flare, or recommended maximum bury point for a turn -- at least for a canopy like mine. Knowing the stall point determines the depth of pulling a toggle. How fast I can do it safely. Push it incrementally slowly to give you time to get close to your comfort limits safely. At least for my particular canopy, sudden toggle movements entering and exiting a spiral is a big no-no - always monitor tension, don't let lines become too slack. Then 1080 degrees is no problem as long as I have plenty of safe play altitude. It takes some skill to know how to safely do more than a 360 degree spiral, that's why a lot of dropzones say not to do more than 360 degrees or until a specific experience level... Sure under a student Manta loaded at 0.65, (and requiring two wraps of toggles just to stall it), I can yank and bury a toggle carelessly (above 1000 feet) and it wouldn't flinch. But when I got to the non-student canopies such as Sabre's at 1:1 wingloading, watch out -- what you can safely do on a Manta doesn't apply. That's what happened to me at jump #29. Like an expensive high performance cars, you can't always slam the gas pedal or the tires just spin uselessly and burn rubber (and sometimes you spin out of control), you need to ease into a good acceleration and keep the traction. Can't just slam the gas pedal like you safely can on a starter Geo Metro car. I am constantly learning. I have not even maximized my canopy yet. But continuous spirals are no problem for me, just make sure I do it safely (play space and altitude) with proper ease-in and ease-out smooth acceleration and smooth braking of the spiralling. I have done many stall tests and recovery. I once went into an intentional deep stall (bowtied canopy) during high altitude at 8000 feet after listening to Scott Miller and reading Brian's book. Needless to say, I am glad to learn recovery procedures at that altitude, the results are exciting to say at the least (And do not try this without instruction first.) My instructors were a big help and Brian Germain's "Parachute and its Pilot" is a big help too. I wouldn't rely on the forums as a sole source. (Though I do occasionally learn a few useful things from here -- like the need to test for the new tail deflection point (flare start point) everytime my canopy is relined or the brake lines are replaced). Any of my advice can be wrong, I am no instructor. I am a 1-pie wonder. Caveat emptor. Do your skydiving homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites YISkyDive 0 #14 October 11, 2005 The video is not posted as of late, but next week I could post it. Its a shitty shitty video, but i could see it as being educational as well. I need my camera, which is 400 miles away to post it. I'll PM when when its up dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lintern 1 #15 October 11, 2005 Thanks everyone for your replies. QuoteA proper turn should only have the toggle down 1/2 - 3/4...dragonfyr From what I recall I pulled the toggle about 3/4 of the way down. I pulled it to the point at or slightly above my waist line. QuoteAlso, if you switch directions, you should be even more aware of not burying the opposite toggle...dragonfyr I have heard about this before so I am more cautious when I do it. I let the speed of the canopy increase to full drive before I turn in the opposite direction. QuoteCan you tell us how high you were 1. when you got into trouble and 2. when you got things back under control?...FrogNog From what I can recall: 1. I was about 2.5k when I initiated the spiral. 2. I was just under 2k by the time things got back under control. I remember doing no more turns for somtime after the event and just faced into wind, before starting the downwind leg. Someone who saw what happened from the ground found it amusing that one minute I was burying the toggles doing these spirals, but then after the problem occured I only dared to use small toggle inputs! QuoteLoose line tension and your liable to gift wrap yourself...YISkyDive When the problem occured, for a split second I did think I was about to get wrapped in my canopy. Could this have happened if I had held the toggle down for any longer ? It felt like I was about to fall into my canopy which is when I knew something was seriously wrong and immediately realesed the toggle. If a wrap had occured, then it would have been very difficult to do a clean cut away and to make things worse I had little altitude to sort things out QuoteOn my video, you can clearly see a stalled left side, and then the canopy flying around it, no fun...YISkyDive YISkyDive, I would like to see this video as well. If you get it posted could you please let me know ? Or if anyone else has video footage of a similar incident? My email is johnlintern@orange.net Thanks. QuoteCan you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher...MarkM Im not sure if they allow this ? Ive never seen or heard of it being done at any dropzone Ive been to. Is there a chance you could have an off landing by deploying so high up ? I think what I would really like to do (and should do) is a canopy course. Quote- Did I pull the toggle too far down ? Sounds lke you stalled 1/2 of the canopy. - What is the safe limit to pull the toggle down to ? Just before it stalls...Hooknswoop I never realised you could stall half the canopy using one toggle ? Is the stall point when using one toggle the same as the stall point when using both toggles ? When I first started jumping the canopy I practiced several stalls up high to find the stall point. I did this by pulling both toggles down until the canopy started to fold towards the rear and everything started to go quiet. I could feel the forward speed of the canopy decrease. Then I slowly let the toggles back up to full drive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #16 October 11, 2005 Quote Quote Can you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher...MarkM Im not sure if they allow this ? Ive never seen or heard of it being done at any dropzone Ive been to. Is there a chance you could have an off landing by deploying so high up ? I think what I would really like to do (and should do) is a canopy course. *** It depends. I can have 2000-2200m hop'n'pop any time in our club. If I want to leave/open higher we have to contact pilot/ATC too. I can remember CRW dogs were jumping from 3000m. If you go for hop'n'pop high consult with an instructor about your spot. I would do it in clam higher winds and warm conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #17 October 11, 2005 You need to look at the canopy as you spiral. It's easy to see the signs of a serious stall and then back off your toggle input slightly so that you maintain a high rate of turn without ending up in line twists. If you really waited a full 5 seconds after the first spiral you should have been more or less planed out, so the second input was probably just too much toggle. My .02Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #18 October 11, 2005 This is a good topic. I haven't heard much discussion on this before. I always figured you could spiral all you wanted without too much to worry about as long as you were up high enough and didn't make yourself sick. Last year there was a motorized parachute that collapsed, killing both the pilot and passenger. This was close to where I live and I just got the full scoop yesterday.... I guess he was making a radical turn using one riser and collapsed half his chute. There was no reserve to fall back on. I suppose skydivers could do the same thing if we try hard enough....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #19 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou need to look at the canopy as you spiral. I'd much rather you look where you're spiraling to! Unless you're 100% certain you're in the air by yourself. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #20 October 11, 2005 It's called stallturns... Pretty awesome. Sometimes though, they are unrecoverable. Usually paragliders have round reserves though. A few weeks ago we even had a SL student do repetitive stall turns on a Manta (!) and he KEPT doing them untill 100 ft (!!), and that with an FXC on his rig... He got a talking to You don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern, and it's way easy to get a smaller and/or more hp canopy to twist up by turning first one way then the other. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #21 October 11, 2005 I feel strange. I have a canopy that I can not stall with toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #22 October 11, 2005 Of course you can. Just take a wrap (or more) on your steering lines and try again... Up high of course ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #23 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites YISkyDive 0 #24 October 12, 2005 BECAREFUL with that.. two things.. loose linen tension and All bets are off with safety. You could end up in your canopy. Also if you pinch a steering line and get diving line twists you may not be able to get out of them.. inducing a cutaway at a pretty high altitude.. though not a problem but lost equipment sucks. This is something i thought about.. but an experienced jumper changed my mind.. best thing to do is to learn to fly your canopy smoothly and efficiently.. a good pilot will never get close to these stall points and induced line twists.. been there.. done that.. they suck. simple as that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #25 October 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems..If you do, monitor your line tension! Do it incrementally, gradually, and at high altitude. Of course, clear everything with your proper dropzone contacts too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Jeth 0 #11 October 10, 2005 Quote On my video, you can clearly see a stalled left side, and then the canopy flying around it, no fun. Is this video posted somewhere? I'd like to see that. Glad you got out of it okay. "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #12 October 10, 2005 Can you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher. And being under canopy at 13k gives you lot's of breathing room to see what you can and can't do under your canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #13 October 10, 2005 I spiralled into linetwists once (only a simple easy linetwist) sometime when I downsized to a 190. That was jump #29. Not as dramatic, it was only a half line twist and was above harddeck, but it sure taught me a lesson -- What it taught me is that I really need to know my canopy (stall point, how slowly and quickly I bury my toggle) before I do anything dramatic with it. Easing it down and easing it up, no sudden burying, no sudden releasing. And not below stall point which varies from canopy to canopy. Which is why you need to do things like test for it, just before stall point usually means end of flare, or recommended maximum bury point for a turn -- at least for a canopy like mine. Knowing the stall point determines the depth of pulling a toggle. How fast I can do it safely. Push it incrementally slowly to give you time to get close to your comfort limits safely. At least for my particular canopy, sudden toggle movements entering and exiting a spiral is a big no-no - always monitor tension, don't let lines become too slack. Then 1080 degrees is no problem as long as I have plenty of safe play altitude. It takes some skill to know how to safely do more than a 360 degree spiral, that's why a lot of dropzones say not to do more than 360 degrees or until a specific experience level... Sure under a student Manta loaded at 0.65, (and requiring two wraps of toggles just to stall it), I can yank and bury a toggle carelessly (above 1000 feet) and it wouldn't flinch. But when I got to the non-student canopies such as Sabre's at 1:1 wingloading, watch out -- what you can safely do on a Manta doesn't apply. That's what happened to me at jump #29. Like an expensive high performance cars, you can't always slam the gas pedal or the tires just spin uselessly and burn rubber (and sometimes you spin out of control), you need to ease into a good acceleration and keep the traction. Can't just slam the gas pedal like you safely can on a starter Geo Metro car. I am constantly learning. I have not even maximized my canopy yet. But continuous spirals are no problem for me, just make sure I do it safely (play space and altitude) with proper ease-in and ease-out smooth acceleration and smooth braking of the spiralling. I have done many stall tests and recovery. I once went into an intentional deep stall (bowtied canopy) during high altitude at 8000 feet after listening to Scott Miller and reading Brian's book. Needless to say, I am glad to learn recovery procedures at that altitude, the results are exciting to say at the least (And do not try this without instruction first.) My instructors were a big help and Brian Germain's "Parachute and its Pilot" is a big help too. I wouldn't rely on the forums as a sole source. (Though I do occasionally learn a few useful things from here -- like the need to test for the new tail deflection point (flare start point) everytime my canopy is relined or the brake lines are replaced). Any of my advice can be wrong, I am no instructor. I am a 1-pie wonder. Caveat emptor. Do your skydiving homework. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #14 October 11, 2005 The video is not posted as of late, but next week I could post it. Its a shitty shitty video, but i could see it as being educational as well. I need my camera, which is 400 miles away to post it. I'll PM when when its up dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lintern 1 #15 October 11, 2005 Thanks everyone for your replies. QuoteA proper turn should only have the toggle down 1/2 - 3/4...dragonfyr From what I recall I pulled the toggle about 3/4 of the way down. I pulled it to the point at or slightly above my waist line. QuoteAlso, if you switch directions, you should be even more aware of not burying the opposite toggle...dragonfyr I have heard about this before so I am more cautious when I do it. I let the speed of the canopy increase to full drive before I turn in the opposite direction. QuoteCan you tell us how high you were 1. when you got into trouble and 2. when you got things back under control?...FrogNog From what I can recall: 1. I was about 2.5k when I initiated the spiral. 2. I was just under 2k by the time things got back under control. I remember doing no more turns for somtime after the event and just faced into wind, before starting the downwind leg. Someone who saw what happened from the ground found it amusing that one minute I was burying the toggles doing these spirals, but then after the problem occured I only dared to use small toggle inputs! QuoteLoose line tension and your liable to gift wrap yourself...YISkyDive When the problem occured, for a split second I did think I was about to get wrapped in my canopy. Could this have happened if I had held the toggle down for any longer ? It felt like I was about to fall into my canopy which is when I knew something was seriously wrong and immediately realesed the toggle. If a wrap had occured, then it would have been very difficult to do a clean cut away and to make things worse I had little altitude to sort things out QuoteOn my video, you can clearly see a stalled left side, and then the canopy flying around it, no fun...YISkyDive YISkyDive, I would like to see this video as well. If you get it posted could you please let me know ? Or if anyone else has video footage of a similar incident? My email is johnlintern@orange.net Thanks. QuoteCan you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher...MarkM Im not sure if they allow this ? Ive never seen or heard of it being done at any dropzone Ive been to. Is there a chance you could have an off landing by deploying so high up ? I think what I would really like to do (and should do) is a canopy course. Quote- Did I pull the toggle too far down ? Sounds lke you stalled 1/2 of the canopy. - What is the safe limit to pull the toggle down to ? Just before it stalls...Hooknswoop I never realised you could stall half the canopy using one toggle ? Is the stall point when using one toggle the same as the stall point when using both toggles ? When I first started jumping the canopy I practiced several stalls up high to find the stall point. I did this by pulling both toggles down until the canopy started to fold towards the rear and everything started to go quiet. I could feel the forward speed of the canopy decrease. Then I slowly let the toggles back up to full drive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 October 11, 2005 Quote Quote Can you do full altitude hop and pops at your dropzone? Getting out there and flying the crap out of your canopy while at a safe cutaway altitude is a great teacher...MarkM Im not sure if they allow this ? Ive never seen or heard of it being done at any dropzone Ive been to. Is there a chance you could have an off landing by deploying so high up ? I think what I would really like to do (and should do) is a canopy course. *** It depends. I can have 2000-2200m hop'n'pop any time in our club. If I want to leave/open higher we have to contact pilot/ATC too. I can remember CRW dogs were jumping from 3000m. If you go for hop'n'pop high consult with an instructor about your spot. I would do it in clam higher winds and warm conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #17 October 11, 2005 You need to look at the canopy as you spiral. It's easy to see the signs of a serious stall and then back off your toggle input slightly so that you maintain a high rate of turn without ending up in line twists. If you really waited a full 5 seconds after the first spiral you should have been more or less planed out, so the second input was probably just too much toggle. My .02Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #18 October 11, 2005 This is a good topic. I haven't heard much discussion on this before. I always figured you could spiral all you wanted without too much to worry about as long as you were up high enough and didn't make yourself sick. Last year there was a motorized parachute that collapsed, killing both the pilot and passenger. This was close to where I live and I just got the full scoop yesterday.... I guess he was making a radical turn using one riser and collapsed half his chute. There was no reserve to fall back on. I suppose skydivers could do the same thing if we try hard enough....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #19 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou need to look at the canopy as you spiral. I'd much rather you look where you're spiraling to! Unless you're 100% certain you're in the air by yourself. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #20 October 11, 2005 It's called stallturns... Pretty awesome. Sometimes though, they are unrecoverable. Usually paragliders have round reserves though. A few weeks ago we even had a SL student do repetitive stall turns on a Manta (!) and he KEPT doing them untill 100 ft (!!), and that with an FXC on his rig... He got a talking to You don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern, and it's way easy to get a smaller and/or more hp canopy to twist up by turning first one way then the other. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #21 October 11, 2005 I feel strange. I have a canopy that I can not stall with toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #22 October 11, 2005 Of course you can. Just take a wrap (or more) on your steering lines and try again... Up high of course ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nate_1979 9 #23 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites YISkyDive 0 #24 October 12, 2005 BECAREFUL with that.. two things.. loose linen tension and All bets are off with safety. You could end up in your canopy. Also if you pinch a steering line and get diving line twists you may not be able to get out of them.. inducing a cutaway at a pretty high altitude.. though not a problem but lost equipment sucks. This is something i thought about.. but an experienced jumper changed my mind.. best thing to do is to learn to fly your canopy smoothly and efficiently.. a good pilot will never get close to these stall points and induced line twists.. been there.. done that.. they suck. simple as that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #25 October 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems..If you do, monitor your line tension! Do it incrementally, gradually, and at high altitude. Of course, clear everything with your proper dropzone contacts too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AdD 1 #17 October 11, 2005 You need to look at the canopy as you spiral. It's easy to see the signs of a serious stall and then back off your toggle input slightly so that you maintain a high rate of turn without ending up in line twists. If you really waited a full 5 seconds after the first spiral you should have been more or less planed out, so the second input was probably just too much toggle. My .02Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #18 October 11, 2005 This is a good topic. I haven't heard much discussion on this before. I always figured you could spiral all you wanted without too much to worry about as long as you were up high enough and didn't make yourself sick. Last year there was a motorized parachute that collapsed, killing both the pilot and passenger. This was close to where I live and I just got the full scoop yesterday.... I guess he was making a radical turn using one riser and collapsed half his chute. There was no reserve to fall back on. I suppose skydivers could do the same thing if we try hard enough....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #19 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou need to look at the canopy as you spiral. I'd much rather you look where you're spiraling to! Unless you're 100% certain you're in the air by yourself. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #20 October 11, 2005 It's called stallturns... Pretty awesome. Sometimes though, they are unrecoverable. Usually paragliders have round reserves though. A few weeks ago we even had a SL student do repetitive stall turns on a Manta (!) and he KEPT doing them untill 100 ft (!!), and that with an FXC on his rig... He got a talking to You don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern, and it's way easy to get a smaller and/or more hp canopy to twist up by turning first one way then the other. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 October 11, 2005 I feel strange. I have a canopy that I can not stall with toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #22 October 11, 2005 Of course you can. Just take a wrap (or more) on your steering lines and try again... Up high of course ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #23 October 11, 2005 QuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YISkyDive 0 #24 October 12, 2005 BECAREFUL with that.. two things.. loose linen tension and All bets are off with safety. You could end up in your canopy. Also if you pinch a steering line and get diving line twists you may not be able to get out of them.. inducing a cutaway at a pretty high altitude.. though not a problem but lost equipment sucks. This is something i thought about.. but an experienced jumper changed my mind.. best thing to do is to learn to fly your canopy smoothly and efficiently.. a good pilot will never get close to these stall points and induced line twists.. been there.. done that.. they suck. simple as that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #25 October 12, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou don't even need to spiral. I've seen people get linetwists by "just" cranking a 90 degree toggle turn in their landing pattern Hmm, I do that... I think I'm gonna have to go up and do some intentional attempted turning stalls of my canopy to see how it reacts to this stuff... I've done the normal stalls, know what that limit is, but never thought of turning stalls.. I dont know that I have much risk of a 90 deg. stall though, since I've done multiple 360s pretty hard on the toggles with no problems..If you do, monitor your line tension! Do it incrementally, gradually, and at high altitude. Of course, clear everything with your proper dropzone contacts too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
