jrjny 0
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jrjny 0
Agreed re: skies...but ground is.
do plan on ordering a snag-free mount and chinstrap cutaway for my hr2 before jumping with it again because in my view then I've hedged against the most uncontrolled risks.
I do not believe I will lose alti awareness. I'm sure you'll be glad to debate me on that I'm still at the point where breaking off at proper alti is more important than the dive itself (if you know what I mean). I'll have 2 new audibles as well, so the odds of failure will be minimized by several factors.
I'll continue jumping an RSL because there will be no snaghazard. That's really it - hundreds of not thousands of other jumpers have probably given it far less thought but I could care less what they do. I have no shame for what I do/done/did/gonna do - it is what it is.
Quote
Yup...it is what it is.
I'd never think to debate ya Jeff~ I just wanted you to put it down so others can see and maybe understand...
Again, please don't take offense...you're a learning 'tool' so to speak.
You don't have much experience we both agree, you decided not to follow the SIM 'recommendations' because for whatever reason you've convinced yourself they don't really apply to you.
With your minimum of experience, you've figured out a 'snag-free' mount means you don't need to address your EP's differently...but you will get a cutaway chinstrap anyway....??
Okay, that's maybe not certain 'sport death' but can you see where I'd go with this if I WERE to debate you?
It's a tired old and too often used statement about you don't know what you don't know...but ummm.
I won't argue with ya because in all honesty, I don't know you and I don't really care to, you don't have a very safe mind set.
You are gonna 'do' this & that..gonna 'get' this & that...but you don't understand why or how to do what you are telling others it's OK to do.
Now I'm not saying a camera will kill YOU, in fact I hope nothing EVER happens to ya...but your obvious complacency in this area leads me to believe you will probably have it in others areas of your skydiving.
...that's playin' the odds in a dumb way. You have a greater chance of getting bit than someone that takes a more intelligent approach.
I've seen 'em come & go, you'll either get dead, get hurt, or get scared but lucky and decide to move on to something else...or you'll get smart and follow advise of guys with 100's or 1000's of TIMES as many jumps as you have, and enjoy a long jumping career.
Taking the time and actual measures to learn, understand & develop skills...When you choose to disregard the 'recommendations' and advice of people that have been down the path ahead of you, well the 'odds' of your success are significantly reduced.
But it IS your choice!
I just wanted you to jot down your justifications because no matter what happens ~ down the road either I'll say 'told ya so' or YOU'LL say "wow, I really DIDN'T know what I didn't know...
Trust me!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
grimmie 186
QuoteIf you find my comment scary I'd stay out of the skies.
I attended the Western Region S&TA meeting at Skydive San Diego last Thursday. There was probably a couple of hundred thousand jumps worth of experience in the room. DZO's and managers, S&TA's, instructors, PRO rated exhibition team members, military jumpers and some very experienced fun jumpers were in attendance.
Jim Crouch gave a fatality summary review, Bryan Burke gave an incidents review for Skydive AZ and I spoke about EMS training and DZ safety.
After our presentations there was a lot of excellent discussion about incidents, prevention, human nature and gear issues.
One of the things we discussed was learning to skydive on the internet.
We also discussed ways to approach the low time jumpers doing stupid things, how to deal with experienced jumpers doing stupid things and the need for DZ mentors to help out with the safety aspects of our sport.
I am calling you out right now. You said you are going down to Skydive Arizona soon.
Sit down with Bryan Burke and have a friendly discussion about wearing your camera. Please.
And what you think is hostility by experienced jumpers here is usually because they are tired of seeing new kids on the block getting killed, or worse yet, crapping into a plastic bag and wheelchairing through life or even worse, killing someone innocent.
Think about it...
Idk who let him out of the plane, but jeez.
Quote
The SAME 'who' that let's YOU get out....
I'm sure he didn't 'plan' to or 'believe' he would make any errors either.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
QuoteTo the OP -- see, you need to think for yourself in this sport. People have lots of opinions. You should read the SIM and make your own.
Wrong. Those recommendations are there for a reason. You'd serve yourself better by adhering to them.
Jeff
Jeff, my man. You're not listening to those who have tons more experience with these things than you do.
Please, please stop offering advice to other youngsters. You are leading them down the Primrose Path.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteIf you find my comment scary I'd stay out of the skies.
I find your whole attitude scary. I'd love the opportunity to sit down face-to-face with you and discuss that. I'd try to get you to see the importance of skydiving safety....your safety and your affect on the safety of others.
Grimmie is right. Seen too many bozos maimed and dead. We just don't want you to be the next in line even though you seem to be trying for it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteThere should be a sticky that says 'how to jump with a camera and not kill yourself' all other details left out
Your first mistake, and I attribute this to the internet, is that you're very focused on fatalities, or the lack of them. All of your 'research', which by your own admission muct have been online (you admitted you have yet to speak with a 'live' camera flyer), is incomplete as the only incidents that are recorded are the fatalities. There are no records of any injuries, there are jumpers in wheelchairs today with no record of what happened to them, and no chance of anyone learning from their mistake.
Your other problem, again by your own admission, is the list of things you did not do before jumping a camera, but now you seem to feel is important before doing it again. You may have gotten lucky in that none of those things came back to bite you in the ass, but what else is out there that you're not thinking of?
Ever ask a whuffo how to make a skydive? They'll give you a simplistic answer like 'jump out and open a chute', but you and I both know there are more considerations invovled in making a safe skydive. How did we learn that? Proper training and guidance taught us what we need to know, and how we need to think. I sure you didn't stand up in the middle of your FJC and tell your instructor that you were going to do a solo exit, some back loops, and pull at 2.5k, right? I'm not sure why not, because there are jumpers doing that every day, so you should be fine, right? Of course not, and the reason being that you were making a good choice in following along with the advice of those with more experience than you.
Don't look at this situation as a stand-alone example. Your camera jumps may gone fine, and may continue to go fine into the future, but the idea here is to get your thinking back in line before that's what get's you into trouble. You made a series of bad choices, and because they happened to work out without incident, you're defending your thought process as sound, but it's not.
The lesson to learn here is not to stay away from cameras. For you, maybe the camera isn't a problem. The lesson is to see the error of your ways, and recognize that you used an incorrect thought process to reach your conclusion, and to correct that thought process.
beowulf 1
What is scary about you is your inability to appreciate the experience of others and learn from them. It's much better to learn from others mistakes rather then make those mistakes yourself.
Your posts make you sound like a teenager who knows better then their parents.
Your posts make you sound like a teenager who knows better then their parents.
QuoteChuck
I thought the reason not to wear the camera prior to 200 jumps was because of snag issues. I did not think about the idea of being distracted because of camera use. I must be still so green that i cant imagine being more fixated on the camera then the task at hand.
I read the post that was attached and it makes perfect sense note to jump with a camera prior to 200 jumps.
I feel bad for all the shit that was given to the guy that suggested differently. I think his point was everybidy is different and maybe the magic number 200 doesnt mean your then safe and one should be responsible for their actions.
Getting back to you...
I applaud your open minded attitude toward learning & safety. It will take you far in this sport.
Understand that in the beginning, just being focused on the tasks involved with saving your life during the most basic of skydives and performing them correctly can at times overwhelm even the most competent n00ber.
Adding complexity is something that needs to be taken slowly and in small bites.
Certainly one 'can' often get away with doing things over & above their skill and ability level...but why, it's unnecessarily taking a few points 'odds' wise away from you.
You may 'get away' with it, but then again it may bite you, and in this sport any 'bite' is usually a serious matter and more often than not a life changer.
Jeff the guy that gave camera advise is receiving a lot of attention in your thread...NOT because anyone is trying to rain on his parade ~
~ but instead because the more experienced people KNOW what can happen and don''t want someone ELSE to have their life irrevocably changed because they didn't truly understand the risks of adding complexity before being ready 'can' cause.
When someone with minimum experience says they've 'calculated the risk' they're talking through their hat because they don't fully know or comprehend the 'risks'.
They can't possibly make an accurate calculation or decision regarding the cost/benefit because they have incomplete data.
The worst thing that can happen is ya get away with doing that, tends to reinforse disregard of common safety practices.
And even WORSE, ya then pass on that 'no problem' expierence with flawed advise to others who often blindly take that suggestion as sound... because it's what the 'want' to hear.
Remember that Skydiving isn't a required course in the school of life, it's an elective. There isn't a time limit for completion and the grade is pass/fail with the final exam being able to make steam on a mirror when you're done.
The 'Cliff Notes' were written by those that came before ya so use them. . .
I'm in it for almost 40 years and I've never missed a day because of injury, I've NEVER been sorry about a jump I didn't make because it didn't feel right, or I was told by people that know better, that I wasn't ready yet.
Have fun but be safe!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
NWFlyer 2
Quote
Sit down with Bryan Burke and have a friendly discussion about wearing your camera. Please.
And then listen to everything else Bryan has to say. Seriously. Buy the man a couple beverages of his choice and just listen. Great stories, great info, told with dry humor and insightful analysis. And I can guarantee you that he won't yell at you.
People talk all the time about getting "Burked" at Eloy (or other dropzones where Bryan is traveling with the SDAZ aircraft). People who've never seen it think that it means you're getting yelled at. Oh no, that couldn't be more wrong. I have compared getting Burked to the feeling you get when your parents said, in a quiet voice, "I'm very disappointed in you." I don't know about you, but that always felt worse than being yelled at. Bryan doesn't raise his voice, but he makes his points in a strong and meaningful way. And you'll learn a lot from him as long as you listen.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
jrjny 0
You guys are only reading half of what I've written:
a) I'm not jumping with a camera because the footage really isn't that great and it is a needless distraction at this point. I explained my process initially for you to attack because hopefully someone will find it useful. I pointed that out to the OP to discourage him, but you didn't read what I wrote.
I would be glad to talk to B. Burke he's probably a skydiving genius and I'd learn a lot.
b) When I have a better/safer set-up I'll revisit camera flying but probably not for another 50-100 jumps or so. Nothing further to clarify here, at that point I will have over 200 jumps so it'll be a moot point as far as the SIM goes and I'll have an even better set-up.
I think this is a good conversation to have because I myself, a fairly new jumper who does NOT live to jump, is probably representative of what type of person will contribute to the sport's growth over the next 10-20 years. I just got my 3rd yr renewal back in the mail and according to Ed Scott there are only 31k USPA members...we need to get that up to 50k!
Given the availability of new and smaller format cameras and people's egotistical drive to get footage of themselves...well, the rest will be history. Better to RIDE the wave then stand infront of a tsunami.
a) I'm not jumping with a camera because the footage really isn't that great and it is a needless distraction at this point. I explained my process initially for you to attack because hopefully someone will find it useful. I pointed that out to the OP to discourage him, but you didn't read what I wrote.
I would be glad to talk to B. Burke he's probably a skydiving genius and I'd learn a lot.
b) When I have a better/safer set-up I'll revisit camera flying but probably not for another 50-100 jumps or so. Nothing further to clarify here, at that point I will have over 200 jumps so it'll be a moot point as far as the SIM goes and I'll have an even better set-up.
I think this is a good conversation to have because I myself, a fairly new jumper who does NOT live to jump, is probably representative of what type of person will contribute to the sport's growth over the next 10-20 years. I just got my 3rd yr renewal back in the mail and according to Ed Scott there are only 31k USPA members...we need to get that up to 50k!
Given the availability of new and smaller format cameras and people's egotistical drive to get footage of themselves...well, the rest will be history. Better to RIDE the wave then stand infront of a tsunami.
beowulf 1
QuoteYou'll find the sport is filled with hypocrisy and generalizations. Many people with 10-20x more experience than I have will tell you it's dangerous, but then they fly a canopy that's considered high performance because they believe they can handle it, just as you believe you can handle the camera.
Let me refresh your memory. This is the part that I object to the most. This is where you essentially say that people with more experience then you are hypocritical and don't know what they are talking about but you do.
Then you go on and advise the OP as to what he should do and provided him bad advice.
Does that clarify.
jrjny 0
Dave I agree with most of your points, that's why I outlined my process clearly so people could learn. Also note that my process is not unique, many people before have done the same and many after me will.
But to your point:
I am focused on fatalities - if people see that cameras do not cause fatalities they may dismiss the issue entirely, because what do they cause? If not fatalities, or not landing injuries, then what? The issue then must be education about:
Risk 1`
Risk 2
Risk 3
and
Solution 1
Solution 2
Solution 3
If the only practical discussion of risks and tactics to offset is wait until 200 jumps, well -- that's a wrap (no pun intended). If this is not important, then only 2 things are possible:
- barrier to entry for camera fliers in the biz
- it's irrelevant to all but a select few people who don't like other people to fly cameras.
You know what I'm saying?
Jeff
But to your point:
QuoteYour first mistake, and I attribute this to the internet, is that you're very focused on fatalities, or the lack of them.
I am focused on fatalities - if people see that cameras do not cause fatalities they may dismiss the issue entirely, because what do they cause? If not fatalities, or not landing injuries, then what? The issue then must be education about:
Risk 1`
Risk 2
Risk 3
and
Solution 1
Solution 2
Solution 3
If the only practical discussion of risks and tactics to offset is wait until 200 jumps, well -- that's a wrap (no pun intended). If this is not important, then only 2 things are possible:
- barrier to entry for camera fliers in the biz
- it's irrelevant to all but a select few people who don't like other people to fly cameras.
You know what I'm saying?
Jeff
rehmwa 2
QuoteI would say wait until you have at least 75-100 jumps and make sure you have an...
the only thing I'd point out here is the consistency - you have slightly over 100 jumps, and that's where you want to set the criteria
I see this a lot, but it's VERY consistent with jumpers with less than 1000 jumps. (not singling out jrjny, he's not ANY different than all these guys)
Seems once we get past that milestone they start to progress to more objectively based opinions
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
jrjny 0
Beowulf - I never claimed the world had only 2 states
State 1:
I know
State 2:
or they know.
That would be a binary outcome, which is typically not the case when dealing with a myriad of uncontrolled risk factors.
My intent was to highlight the fact that another discipline within the sport parachuting community (swooping) has been proven to be much more dangerous than strapping on a gorpro, yet people find it permissible with training - just as they find camera flying. To an outsider that's puzzling.
The gentlemen from San Diego who's no longer with us thought he could handle swooping and apparently did several thousand times prior. There is a long tail of risk factors we cannot control and there is quite a bit of ambiguity in the sport as it pertains to how that risk should be controlled. You can debate that until your blue in the face but I'll never be convinced otherwise.
Jeff
State 1:
I know
State 2:
or they know.
That would be a binary outcome, which is typically not the case when dealing with a myriad of uncontrolled risk factors.
My intent was to highlight the fact that another discipline within the sport parachuting community (swooping) has been proven to be much more dangerous than strapping on a gorpro, yet people find it permissible with training - just as they find camera flying. To an outsider that's puzzling.
The gentlemen from San Diego who's no longer with us thought he could handle swooping and apparently did several thousand times prior. There is a long tail of risk factors we cannot control and there is quite a bit of ambiguity in the sport as it pertains to how that risk should be controlled. You can debate that until your blue in the face but I'll never be convinced otherwise.
Jeff
jrjny 0
cherry pick much?
rehmwa 2
Quotebecause they happened to work out without incident, you're defending your thought process as sound, but it's not.
great comment Dave - this is the main problem with low experienced people instructing, taking on equipment they shouldn't, etc etc etc
experience allows us to see many different ways that learning should and shouldn't be done - lack of experience only lets a person teach from their own (single) example. I continue to get students trying to tell other students how "they" overcame a problem. They don't realize that a one size fits all solution is short sided and more harmful than not to someone learning something for the first time - the 'Basics' certainly apply across the board, but how to apply and communicate those basics takes a bit of insight into reading the student and figuring out how they will learn and apply it correctly.
edit: last year was one of the worst - I had to physically separate a student from their sig other who (with good intentions) kept projecting their AFF jump experience onto the other who was having very different issues. The advice was well meant, but completely the opposite of what the student needed.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
Quotecherry pick much?
it's the only thing I wanted to talk about from your post - the rest of the discussion can stand on its own or not
you chose to step into it, deal with it. Do you see the trend? have you paid attention and noticed it, or are you too close to it to see it yet?
How many years have you been instructing?
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Man that's an EDGE case
Idk who let him out of the plane, but jeez.
But to answer your question I did it because I was not breaking a requirement, rather - a recommendation. Also, and you don't need to dissect this one logically; many people have done it before me. Insert any action you'd like to that phrase and weigh the risks.
I do plan on ordering a snag-free mount and chinstrap cutaway for my hr2 before jumping with it again because in my view then I've hedged against the most uncontrolled risks.
I do not believe I will lose alti awareness. I'm sure you'll be glad to debate me on that I'm still at the point where breaking off at proper alti is more important than the dive itself (if you know what I mean). I'll have 2 new audibles as well, so the odds of failure will be minimized by several factors.
I'll continue jumping an RSL because there will be no snaghazard. That's really it - hundreds of not thousands of other jumpers have probably given it far less thought but I could care less what they do. I have no shame for what I do/done/did/gonna do - it is what it is.
There should be a sticky that says 'how to jump with a camera and not kill yourself' all other details left out.
Thanks,
Jeff
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