DiverMike 5 #101 February 23, 2012 I have a gopro that I haven't put on my skydiving helmet yet until I have more experience. I did, however, put it on my ski helmet. Last time I was in Colorado, I video'd my wife, and since I was wearing a camera decided to go through trees for a 'cool shot'. I did something more dangerous than I would normally do, but wasn't focusing on it. I wiped out and by sheer luck did not get hurt. It is very difficult to forget you are wearing a camera. YMMV For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #102 February 23, 2012 Quote It is very difficult to forget you are wearing a camera. YMMV Yep, wanting to get cool shots is a HUGE problem and we all said we wouldn't do it."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #103 February 23, 2012 QuoteI would not disagree with anything you, Dave or Bill has said in the above posts. All good points, especially making the camera recommendations and coach requirements at least match. However, I cannot help but think that if someone has a coach rating that they be able to fly camera without it being distracting enough to make them a danger - and by that I mean that they should be cognizant enough to pull off the jump safely, not that the video would necessarily be something that the student would want to showcase. I have seen plenty of video that pretty much sucked but a student could still tell what they were doing right or wrong, or what they could improve on. Is it truly possible to be objective I wonder? I have never flown camera - I am thinking about getting video on a couple of CRW and RW jumps, then strapping on a cam myself and doing the same dives again, and compare the results to see if my performance is affected. I am just worried that I would be hyper aware of my performance and that the data would be compromised since there would be very little chance of me allowing myself to get complacent. Any comments? I disagree, I have never evaluated a 100 jump Coach Candidate in using the Video as a tool THEY brought along. I also see potential for the Coach losing focus on the student along the way and adding potential issues. Raise the bar for safety. not lower it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #104 February 23, 2012 QuoteHowever, I cannot help but think that if someone has a coach rating that they be able to fly camera without it being distracting enough to make them a danger - and by that I mean that they should be cognizant enough to pull off the jump safely Here is the insidious thing about cameras..... they SEEM to not be a factor or that they should not be a factor or a big deal at all. But the facts are that they take something that might be simple and add an extra level of complexity. People always say that they will "just ignore the camera, turn it on and forget it". But the facts have shown that while some might be able to do that, many are not able. So a guy that passed a coach course might very well have the basic skills enough to fly a camera without being a danger to himself or someone else.... But maybe not, and maybe not while doing something else. So, now that coach not only wants to fly a camera, but he wants to do it on a coach jump. He has the best intentions, but his attention is split between two activities, neither of them are second nature to him. This is a recipe for disaster. QuoteI have never flown camera I have, and I can tell you that it IS a distraction no matter what people want to try and claim.... My first camera jump ended up with me "trying to get the shot" and deploying my main below 1,000 feet. Much later I started wearing a hand camera on tandems and the first time I almost forgot to deploy the flare toggles (most of my tandems were on a strong system that does not have flare toggles. I transitioned back to Sigma and then about 100 jumps later started wearing a hand camera.... Well, success is a real pain sometimes... Once I got comfortable with the hand camera, I reverted accidentally back to thinking I was flying the Strong system. It was not till I turned down wind and did a semi practice flare that I realized that I didn't have my flare toggles in my hand. Not tragic, but another wakeup call about camera flying. I was busy interviewing the student that I just forgot the newer systems process and reverted back to my old standard. QuoteI am thinking about getting video on a couple of CRW and RW jumps, then strapping on a cam myself and doing the same dives again, and compare the results to see if my performance is affected. Interesting, but probably not going to show much difference. You will KNOW that you are doing this and therefore the chance of you screwing up is less. The real danger with camera's is that moment where you are caught off guard, and you can't really simulate that. The camera guy that flew into his buddy under canopy... didn't think he was too close. The camera guy that hit the deploying tandem pair.. didn't think he was too close. I didn't think I was blasting through one thousand feet on my back, we were all just trying to "get the shot"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #105 February 23, 2012 To add to this... The mentality of "getting the shot" is often not a conscious thought. It's something that sneaks up on you despite wanting to forget the camera is there and just fly your body. Too often newbies say they plan wearing a camera and just turning it on and forgetting about it and it often doesn't work out that way. It doesn't always have bad results but it does increase the possibility significantly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #106 February 23, 2012 >However, I cannot help but think that if someone has a coach rating that >they be able to fly camera without it being distracting enough to make them >a danger . . . I think a student is a huge distraction to begin with; it's basically doubling your workload on the jump, because you don't just have to worry about your own performance - you have to guide and evaluate someone else's as well. I'd worry about adding another distraction to a new coach who is barely able to keep up with the demands of the dive. I'd hope that any new coach would make a bunch of jumps as a coach before adding another distraction to the mix. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #107 February 24, 2012 Nobody ever dug these up (pun intended) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #108 February 24, 2012 QuoteMy biggest point was that your 'process' is flawed, and not based on any real experience, training, or guidance, and while it's foolish of you to follow it yourself, it's irresponsible to suggest it to others, caveats or no. It's based on the USPA (an organization I'm a paying member of) guidelines for skydiving with a camera. Was my execution precise - not at all, admittedly. Get on any plane at any major DZ at least 3-6 people will be jumping gopro snaghazard style and who knows if they've ever even considered what they'll do if shit hits the fan or whether they have 200 jumps or have spoken with a camera flyer about their set-up. Do you talk to them one on one, man to man, when you see them? How do those conversations go? Ever get oldschool on someone's ass elbow to elbow, what did they do? Real life ain't the internet, DEAD is DEAD. Quote(or sleep without pain meds for a decade). that sucks too, to be sure. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #109 February 24, 2012 QuoteNobody ever dug these up (pun intended) That's because when you have the experience (pun intended) you know this already."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #110 February 24, 2012 QuoteDo you talk to them one on one, man to man, when you see them? How do those conversations go? Ever get oldschool on someone's ass elbow to elbow, what did they do? Real life ain't the internet, DEAD is DEAD. I'm not sure I get your drift. At first, it seems like you're asking if I would act the same way to a person in real life. Then you conclude it by saying that 'Dead is dead', which to me implies that it would be important to talk to people in real life, so they don't end up dead. But when I consider that the two points are contradictory, I'm wondering if you're suggesting that if I talked that way in real life, I would end up dead. Again, not sure of your intentions, but yes, I do speak frankly to people in real life. I do start off with some basic suggestions or comments, but if people have a refusal to listen to good sense, and are beginning to put others at risk with their actions (or by suggesting actions), I tend to let the veneer of 'polite society' slide, and 'keep it real'. I don't feel like there's a ton of room for 'bullshit' in skydiving. If you (not you personally, but any jumper) want to be stupid, be prepared to deal with the consequences, which may include being called stupid. I'm not a bullshitter, on the internet or in real life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #111 February 24, 2012 Quote ..... However, I cannot help but think that if someone has a coach rating that they be able to fly camera without it being distracting enough to make them a danger - So then, if we flip the coin... Say someone wants to fly camera at 100 jumps? All they'd have to is get a coach rating. Talk about a back door! Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #112 February 24, 2012 QuoteSo then, if we flip the coin... Say someone wants to fly camera at 100 jumps? All they'd have to is get a coach rating. Talk about a back door Atleast then they have demonstrated some level of skill in the air and some ability to see what is going on. I'd have no issue with a guy with 100 jumps jumping a camera as long as he was basically treated like a coach: 1. He went through an organized certification... Why the USPA has not created a 'camera checkout course' I just another glaring example of a failure. 2. That the new video guy was under supervision and only allowed on certain pre approved jumps under the supervision of a Sr camera person. This would mean no tandem, no AFF, no total zoo loads. Simple two ways till they have proven they can handle them. No stills, no toys, no zoomies, etc."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #113 February 24, 2012 Quote Ever get oldschool on someone's ass... Pretty much defines your mindset. Have fun with it, son.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #114 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote Ever get oldschool on someone's ass... Pretty much defines your mindset. Have fun with it, son. We're not gonna get into the 'hook knifed the jerk's MLW' discussion again are we? THAT asshole had it coming...! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #115 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote So then, if we flip the coin... Say someone wants to fly camera at 100 jumps? All they'd have to is get a coach rating. Talk about a back door Atleast then they have demonstrated some level of skill in the air and some ability to see what is going on. Quote They've demonstrated the ability to handle a couple very specific dive flows. However, camera is something very different. I'd have no issue with a guy with 100 jumps jumping a camera as long as he was basically treated like a coach: 1. He went through an organized certification... Why the USPA has not created a 'camera checkout course' I just another glaring example of a failure. 2. That the new video guy was under supervision and only allowed on certain pre approved jumps under the supervision of a Sr camera person. This would mean no tandem, no AFF, no total zoo loads. Simple two ways till they have proven they can handle them. No stills, no toys, no zoomies, etc. Quote I would agree with 1 and 2 above if you were to add... #3. Minimum 200 skydives. Also, to jump camera with tandem students you need 500 skydives (per manufacturer) this should be true for AFF students as well. IMHO Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #116 February 24, 2012 "So then, if we flip the coin... Say someone wants to fly camera at 100 jumps? All they'd have to is get a coach rating. Talk about a back door!" No back door necessary - its a recommendation, not a BSR. Actually I like Ron's idea. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #117 February 24, 2012 QuoteThey've demonstrated the ability to handle a couple very specific dive flows. However, camera is something very different. Well, the dive flows would have to be more set up for camera than coach. Also, a coach dive plan vs reality is not exactly the same. So a properly planned dive flow on the 'course' could show the skill set needed for basic camera work just like the current coach course shows the skills for basic coach jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #118 February 24, 2012 Quote Do you talk to them one on one, man to man, when you see them? How do those conversations go? Ever get oldschool on someone's ass elbow to elbow, what did they do? Real life ain't the internet, DEAD is DEAD. Indeed, and have taken a camera from a jumper to be returned upon landing, too. DZ policies are policies. "Hey, didn't you just get your B license?" Yeah man! "I'm guessing you didn't know that DZ policy says we'd rather you didn't jump a camera just yet?" Nope, that sucks dude! "Unfortunately, you can't exit with it. Can we return it to you when we land? The pilot has a padded box up front." No stress for anyone involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #119 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote Do you talk to them one on one, man to man, when you see them? How do those conversations go? Ever get oldschool on someone's ass elbow to elbow, what did they do? Real life ain't the internet, DEAD is DEAD. Indeed, and have taken a camera from a jumper to be returned upon landing, too. DZ policies are policies. "Hey, didn't you just get your B license?" Yeah man! "I'm guessing you didn't know that DZ policy says we'd rather you didn't jump a camera just yet?" Nope, that sucks dude! "Unfortunately, you can't exit with it. Can we return it to you when we land? The pilot has a padded box up front." No stress for anyone involved. ...always HAVE loved that place! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #120 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So then, if we flip the coin... Say someone wants to fly camera at 100 jumps? All they'd have to is get a coach rating. Talk about a back door Atleast then they have demonstrated some level of skill in the air and some ability to see what is going on. Quote They've demonstrated the ability to handle a couple very specific dive flows. However, camera is something very different. I'd have no issue with a guy with 100 jumps jumping a camera as long as he was basically treated like a coach: 1. He went through an organized certification... Why the USPA has not created a 'camera checkout course' I just another glaring example of a failure. 2. That the new video guy was under supervision and only allowed on certain pre approved jumps under the supervision of a Sr camera person. This would mean no tandem, no AFF, no total zoo loads. Simple two ways till they have proven they can handle them. No stills, no toys, no zoomies, etc. Quote I would agree with 1 and 2 above if you were to add... #3. Minimum 200 skydives. Also, to jump camera with tandem students you need 500 skydives (per manufacturer) this should be true for AFF students as well. IMHO Actually the Manufacturers decide to help out a little and meet USPA and DZO's "in the middle" and lowered it to 300 jumps (ref 19 Commandments of Tandem Jumping). Wasn't enough for the Madd Skillz folks though, they got the inch but want the mile. IMO, the Manufacturers should have gone the other direction, raised the bar and taken the authority back from USPA, as they have been ineffectual in that area of safety. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #121 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote I would agree with 1 and 2 above if you were to add... #3. Minimum 200 skydives. Also, to jump camera with tandem students you need 500 skydives (per manufacturer) this should be true for AFF students as well. IMHO Actually the Manufacturers decide to help out a little and meet USPA and DZO's "in the middle" and lowered it to 300 jumps (ref 19 Commandments of Tandem Jumping). Wasn't enough for the Madd Skillz folks though, they got the inch but want the mile. IMO, the Manufacturers should have gone the other direction, raised the bar and taken the authority back from USPA, as they have been ineffectual in that area of safety. Matt Agreed! Also, it use to be 500 jumps + 100 camera jumps, as I recall? Has that changed?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #122 February 24, 2012 Quote Quote Quote I would agree with 1 and 2 above if you were to add... #3. Minimum 200 skydives. Also, to jump camera with tandem students you need 500 skydives (per manufacturer) this should be true for AFF students as well. IMHO Actually the Manufacturers decide to help out a little and meet USPA and DZO's "in the middle" and lowered it to 300 jumps (ref 19 Commandments of Tandem Jumping). Wasn't enough for the Madd Skillz folks though, they got the inch but want the mile. IMO, the Manufacturers should have gone the other direction, raised the bar and taken the authority back from USPA, as they have been ineffectual in that area of safety. Matt Agreed! Also, it use to be 500 jumps + 100 camera jumps, as I recall? Has that changed? Total number changed, that was the proposal from the Three US Manufactures, it was posted here some where. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #123 February 24, 2012 Quote ...always HAVE loved that place! The padded box?????? Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #124 February 24, 2012 Quote Agreed! Also, it use to be 500 jumps + 100 camera jumps, as I recall? Has that changed? I had to look it up myself. It isn't changed for everyone, from the manufacturers' point of view: Quote14. Outside videographers must have a minimum of: o 500 relative work jumps, 100 camera jumps and have made at least 100 jumps in the previous year OR o 300 jumps and have passed the air skills portion of a USPA Coach Course. USPA currently recommends 300 group freefall skydives, 50 camera jumps and does not have any Coach training requirements. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #125 February 25, 2012 QuoteQuote Agreed! Also, it use to be 500 jumps + 100 camera jumps, as I recall? Has that changed? I had to look it up myself. It isn't changed for everyone, from the manufacturers' point of view: Quote14. Outside videographers must have a minimum of: o 500 relative work jumps, 100 camera jumps and have made at least 100 jumps in the previous year OR o 300 jumps and have passed the air skills portion of a USPA Coach Course. USPA currently recommends 300 group freefall skydives, 50 camera jumps and does not have any Coach training requirements. The underlined is from the 19 Commandments of Tandem Parachuting, to be clear. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
