Exit order

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Ive yet to feel like I was hurried at the door, I guess I am lucky with where I jump, safety is such a high concern.

That is good. We had an incident with people in the back of the plane yelling at us at the front (when I used to do RW) to "get the fuck out" cause the light was on.

If that ever happens, I usually do one of two things:

1) ignore them. I can see the ground, they cannot
2) Give them the finger and calmly resume spotting



It is always nice when you correct a spot for some idiot who was yelling at you and then having them apologize and thank you on the ground for spotting well.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 2,026]

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> So if the aircraft is flying into the wind doing 80 knots per its GPS, and the winds at opening altitude are 10 knots from the same direction, and you are waiting 10 seconds between groups, you are going to get (80+10 = 90 kts, which is 153 feet per second) 1530 feet between groups.

Why do you think that the windspeed (or direction of the plane) would affect the horizontal distance between groups???!!
The plane is flying in airmass that is moving to some direction with a certain speed. the jumpers exiting the plane will be "flying" in the same moving airmass, and the horinzontal distance to the other jumpers is only affected by the planes airspeed. What is wrong in your calculation is that you forget that all the jumpers are flying in the same moving(relatively to the ground=wind) air than the plane.
There will be a little difference whether the plane is flying into the wind or for to the opposite direction, but that will only be if some jumpers have longer freefalls than the others and there's a different wind in different layers on the way down. This difference will anyhow be so small that it really makes no difference.
Please don't "teach" before you find out how things really are...

"This difference will anyhow be so small that it really makes no difference."

So, show us your calculations to support that assertion.

I HAVE done them, and I strongly disagree with you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gemini 0]

Trent has a good one when people are yelling at him to get out.

He will look back at them, take his helmet off, put his hand to one ear and say "What?"

It gets really quiet....

Blue skies,

Jim

[marks 0]

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"This difference will anyhow be so small that it really makes no difference."

So, show us your calculations to support that assertion.

I HAVE done them, and I strongly disagree with you.

i havent done the calculations either, but im also going to dissagree with you.. edit: not kellend

think about it, if you can travel 1 mile in 60 seconds. and your flying jump run into the wind wich is 60 mph. for simplicity we will say 60 mph from alt all the way to the ground. and you spend 60 seconds in freefall at deployment time you will have travelled aprox 1 mile. if another group exits, we will call them freefliers. they spend 45 seconds in freefall and deploy at the same altitude as you, you think they travelled 1 mile also? no they would have traveled roughly 1/4 mile. so if these two groups exit at the same time and deploy at the same altitude, there is no reson you have to wait in the door because your deployment separation will be a 1/4 mile..

1/4 mile is not a little, it is alot!

[Remster 30]

Calm down boys... He posted just after that one post saying he realized it was his mistake: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1870727#1870727

Remster

[billvon 2,990]

>would there ever be a case where 8 seconds was not enough seperation?

Absolutely! The cases might be:

1. if freeflyers get out first in normal (20-30kt) upper winds (that's a bad idea anyway) and you are belly
2. Very strong uppers (40+kts)
3. If you are following a large group, say a 16 way
4. If the plane is very slow (i.e. like an AN-2)

One way to think about it is to think about it in terms of distance, not time. As a good rule of thumb, look out the door, and when you have covered 1000 feet over the ground, then it's time to go. This usually works pretty well. How to tell 1000 feet? Well, if your runway is 3000 feet long, that's 1/3 of the runway. If you have roads every mile, you can use that (there are 5000 feet in a mile.) You still have to leave more time for bigways and freeflyers first even with this method though.

[speedy 0]

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would there ever be a case where 8 seconds was not enough seperation?

Sometimes yes. If you are following a large group for instance. Another case is where the upper winds are very strong and the lower winds very weak.

Unfortunately there is no easy rule that fits all situations.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[lisamariewillbe 1]

But if I am following a larger group of lets say 4 belly to earth, and Im a solo, the seperation is greater just due to the fact that they travel faster and do not have as much drift as I would. Same with FF.... since they dont have the drift that I as a solo belly does, wouldnt that give us quite a bit of seperation with a 8 sec delay....regardless of winds ?

i understand there is no magic solution and over time Ill learn the bits in pieces. Im definitley going to get some coaching on that next time Im at the DZ.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[billvon 2,990]

>Same with FF.... since they dont have the drift that I as a solo belly
>does, wouldnt that give us quite a bit of seperation with a 8 sec
>delay....regardless of winds ?

You got that backwards, actually. They don't have as much drift so they tend to go 'straigher' down. Then you get out, and with your slower fall rate you drift more - towards them. Remember that jump run is into the wind, so any additional wind drift is going to push you closer to the previous group. Which is why freeflyers should get out last.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

okay I get it, at least I get it a bit better. This is only the third time Ive learned about exit order. Granted I learn new stuff about it and well Im closer to understanding.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if I am following a larger group of lets say 4 belly to earth, and Im a solo, the seperation is greater just due to the fact that they travel faster and do not have as much drift as I would.

the larger RW group falls slower as a rule, and drifts more as a result (on the typical into wind jump run).

Trickier, and relevent to me, is where to place the beginning sit fliers. With all the tumbling and attempts to get into the sit, the speed must be somewhere in between FF and RW. If I'm last out (often), I've tended to add a couple seconds when I know the long spot won't hurt, and I'm watching for the canopies.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Larger RW groups fall slower then a solo belly flyer?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[nate_1979 9]

yes

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Larger RW groups fall slower then a solo belly flyer?

Yup. The more people you add to a formation, generally, the slower it will fall. That's why it can be very difficult to get "back up" to a formation once you've gone low, becuase once people start taking docks, the formation falls slower.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,990]

> Larger RW groups fall slower then a solo belly flyer?

Depends a great deal. For example, an experienced 4-way team almost always falls faster than a low experience 10 way. However, at higher experience levels, jumpers choose their own fallrates. I've been on bigways where we measured a speed of 108mph, and I've been on ones that hit 130mph in the first half of the dive.

[perse 0]

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i havent done the calculations either, but im also going to dissagree with you.. edit: not kellend

think about it, if you can travel 1 mile in 60 seconds. and your flying jump run into the wind wich is 60 mph. for simplicity we will say 60 mph from alt all the way to the ground. and you spend 60 seconds in freefall at deployment time you will have travelled aprox 1 mile. if another group exits, we will call them freefliers. they spend 45 seconds in freefall and deploy at the same altitude as you, you think they travelled 1 mile also? no they would have traveled roughly 1/4 mile. so if these two groups exit at the same time and deploy at the same altitude, there is no reson you have to wait in the door because your deployment separation will be a 1/4 mile..

1/4 mile is not a little, it is alot!

Well...thats not what I had in mind.
Sorry billvon that I accused you of calculating wrong..

But to the quote above:
I didn't think that the freeflyers also drifted 1 mile!, but 3/4 mile. Agree with you.
I already admitted my first mistake and know I have to admit a second one too.
Yep I made the calculations too...and I was wrong, AGAIN..aargh!
I was mistakenly thinking this over relative to the plane. and if you make the assumption that I made (the jumpers, freeflyers & bellys and the plane are only moving relative to each other in a mass of air.) +should also have thought that the plane is moving relative to the ground with the wind + its own airspeed)

The length of the freefall doesn't affect the effect of the wind to the position of the jumper at the time of deployment relative to the plane (because the plane is also moving with the wind, and the position relative to the plane is just freefall time * planes airspeed)

Length of freefall sure does affect the position of the jumper! sorry.