Calculating exit weight

[rifleman 70]

Roughly how much should you allow for the weight of the kit when working out your exit weight?

The reason I ask is because I've seen a complete rig for sale but I need to work out a rough idea of my wing loading before I approach my CCI and ask whether he thinks I'd be OK with it as a first canopy.

If you allow 35 lb then that would give me a WL of 1.09 if it's 25lb then it comes down to 1.03. The main is a square PD190; reserve is 210.

The rig is £750 without AAD so the reserve will need a repack anyway when the new AAD is installed.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[skydiverek 63]

My Infinity with 190 main and 176 reserve and AAD weighs 12 kg (26 lbs). I add 3 kg (7lbs) for clothes and other equipment, which gives me the total of 33 lbs (15 kg) .

You have bigger canopies, so 35 lbs is a good number for you to use.

[trigger 0]

Most DZ's have weighing scales (Well HPC UK does).
Kit up and weigh yourself(simples).
1Kg=2.2lbs

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[davelepka 4]

Both of those WL would be on the high side for a PD 190 as a first rig. The PD 190 is F-111, and the 'rule of thumb' WL of 1.0 for a first rig was created with zero-porosity fabric in mind. Seeing as z-po has much better (and more reliable) flight/flare characteristics than F-111, you would need a WL lower than 1.0 on a first rig if you're looking at an F-111 canopy.

For the record, back it the days before Z-po, when F-111 was the only choice, there was no 'rule of thumb', as most canopies were on the larger side anyway, and new jumpers weren't trying to jump the smallest canopy they could get away with.

It wasn't until Z-po came along and made really small canopies possible, that WL even became an issue. Take the PD 9-cell line of canopies (of which the PD190 is a member) the smallest one they made was a 150, and even then it was by far the least popular, least produced size.

[rifleman 70]

Thanks for the info. Would you say then that as a rough rule of thumb I'd need to add 1 or 2 points to the WL for an F-111 canopy? eg 1.09 on ZP equivalent to 1.29 on F-111 for same size canopy.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[jumpsalot-2 3]

It was just stated you need a "lighter" wingload on F111. Example: 1.0/1 on z-po or .09/1 or less on F111, of the same canopy size. Example:
exit weight = 180lbs = 190 sq ft F111 canopy.

Life is short ... jump often.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Thanks for the info. Would you say then that as a rough rule of thumb I'd need to add 1 or 2 points to the WL for an F-111 canopy? eg 1.09 on ZP equivalent to 1.29 on F-111 for same size canopy.

No. The rule of thumb is dont go over 1.0 on a F111.

Remster

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Thanks for the info. Would you say then that as a rough rule of thumb I'd need to add 1 or 2 points to the WL for an F-111 canopy? eg 1.09 on ZP equivalent to 1.29 on F-111 for same size canopy

Sort of, but no.

Sort of because it does take more skill to fly an F-111 at 1.09 than it does a Z-po canopy at 1.09, so I guess you could look at it as being a higher 'equivilant' WL.

No because it's not just a matter of WL, it's a matter of deisgn, or more importantly, design limitations. Regardless of experience, you would never want to load an F-111 canopy at, say, 1.4. The material and design of the canopies just don't allow it to 'perform' at those loadings. While a Z-po canopy can be loaded up to 2.0 and beyond, and if the jumper can handle the speed, so can the canopy.

As mentioned in another post, the better way to look at it is that you really don't want to go past 1.0 on an F-111, and you don't even want to go that high unless you have a fair number of jumps on F-111 at a lower WL, and the canopy you'll be jumping has less than 200 or 300 jumps total.

One of the reasons the rig you're looking at is so cheap is the main canopy. If you can get it for less minus the main, and find a z-po main to fit in there, that would be a good way to go. A 210 reserve is a nice size for someone your weight, and I'm assuming the harness fits and you like the rig (why else would you be considering it).

If you can make a deal for the rig minus the canopy, or you can afford to buy the rig and a newer canopy as well, check with a local rigger than the rig is 'Cypres ready', meaning that it's set up to take a modern ADD (Cypres, Vigil, whatever). A rig that's not 'Cyrpes ready' will additional modifications made in order to install an ADD, and you should check on the cost of the work ahead of time. Also, check with the rigger as far as what size main canopies you can fit into the rig. F-111 does pack up smaller than z-po, so a rig that's a tight fit for a PD-190 might only be able to hold a 170 z-po canopy (given the 210 reserve, however, you can expect the main container to be about the same size).

[JohnMitchell 16]

The best thing to remember about F-111 is that it starts out opening hard and landing soft, and as the canopy gets more jumps, those characteristics reverse.

[diablopilot 2]

If 5lbs is the difference between safety and danger, it's too small for you.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

There's enough valid discussion about F-111 fabric that I won't go there, but to answer your first question, 25-35 lbs is a good guess, the bigger the setup, the higher the weight.
I have a Talon with a 190 Triathlon, PD193 and a CYPRES that weighs 35 lbs (on an accurate scale).
Guessing a couple pounds heavier is a good ides, but as was said, if 5 lbs is going to make the decision for you you should really think about it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Roughly how much should you allow for the weight of the kit when working out your exit weight?

The reason I ask is because I've seen a complete rig for sale but I need to work out a rough idea of my wing loading before I approach my CCI and ask whether he thinks I'd be OK with it as a first canopy.

If you allow 35 lb then that would give me a WL of 1.09 if it's 25lb then it comes down to 1.03. The main is a square PD190; reserve is 210.

The rig is £750 without AAD so the reserve will need a repack anyway when the new AAD is installed.

A 10-lb difference and .06 wing-loading difference are trivial. Going with the .06 bigger canopy is not going to ensure you safe, soft landings over the other .06 smaller canopy.

What will make you safe and soft is flying the canopy properly, regardless of the minor differences in size.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Quote

If 5lbs is the difference between safety and danger, it's too small for you.

This bears repeating, so I will
(In answer to the original question though, my gear weighs 30lbs all up when I'm not wearing camera, and I have a 130 main and 150 reserve - by that sort of comparison, I reckon yours would weigh more).

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?