Wind speed & safety question

[stillalive 0]

(In concern to this last Oct 2005 fatality thread)

My main concern when Im going to head up to my D.Z. was checking the weather report and focusing primarily if its sunny, or cloudy, or rain chances.
I was ignoring probably the most important factor (wind speeds). When you are doing tandems wind speed is most probably not one of your immediate concerns.

When you are under canopy by yourself and your approaching to the landing area, thats when these questions start poppig up.
I know instructors won't throw you out if conditions are not O.K. but,,,

I would like to know what is the ideal or max. wind speed a student can safely handle.

I know everybody's ability is different,,, but is there any recommended wind speed a student or even an A Lic. with less than 100 jumps should look out for?


Will not be going to a D.Z. any time soon so I cant ask my instructors....
THANKS!!

------ LIFT ME UP!! ------

[Spatula 0]

Student limits are in the SIM....14 I believe...after you have your license its at the jumpers discretion. But check the SIM.

[jsaxton 0]

students = 14kts
My dropzone (Byron) has a waiver for 18kts because it's always
windy.

A lot of it has to do with your wing loading. at 1.8:1 you can jump in a lot stronger winds (without going backwards) than at 1:1

[tombuch 0]

The maximum wind speed for students is 14 mph. Experienced jumpers don't have official limits, but it's a good idea to stick to 14mph for a while after graduation.

I think a general guideline for experienced jumpers should be about 20mph, but that depends on what direction the wind is blowing and how much turbulence there is. Sometimes a slightly stronger steady wind isn't a problem, but any turbulence can be a big issue. I wrote a feature for The Ranch web site about checking winds. It is article 6 "Evaluating Wind and Turbulence" available at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. The article is really written for jumpers at The Ranch and includes phone numbers to call for local winds at area airports. You can check with your local pilots to see if there are phone numbers for airports near your DZ. Ask for the phone numbers for ATIS or AWOS broadcasts. They should be located in the AFD or a similar pilot handbook of airport information. Also note that winds reported by Flight Service or any other aviation source are in knots, and the speed will be a bit greater in mph.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skybytch 273]

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I know instructors won't throw you out if conditions are not O.K. but,,,

Don't count on that.

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I would like to know what is the ideal or max. wind speed a student can safely handle.

Depends. Most important is how heavily you load the canopy you are jumping - a student canopy loaded at .9 can be safely jumped in higher winds than the same canopy loaded at .75.

As others have said, USPA's maximum winds for students are printed in the BSR's (Basic Safety Regulations) in the SIM (Skydiver's Information Manual).

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I know everybody's ability is different,,, but is there any recommended wind speed a student or even an A Lic. with less than 100 jumps should look out for?

Again it depends on the wingloading. I have over 1000 jumps but I jump a lightly loaded main and I don't like coming straight down or backing up. When the dz puts students on wind hold (based on USPA's maximum wind speed for student jumps) I put myself on wind hold. While I do have the skills to jump in higher winds without injuring myself, I choose not to.

[chuckbrown 0]

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students = 14mph

There, that's better.
14 kts = 16 mph.
18 kts = 21 mph.

[tombuch 0]

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students = 14mph

There, that's better.
14 kts = 16 mph.
18 kts = 21 mph.

Chuck:

I think you misunderstood and mis-converted, or the original poster mis wrote. Whatever.

The USPA limit for students under squares is 14 MPH, and that's 12 knots.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[chuckbrown 0]

I think the original poster misquoted the SIM. I was showing what the error would result in if one put students out at those speeds (in knots).

Thanks, though.

[stillalive 0]

Thanks to all for your information.......

------ LIFT ME UP!! ------

[schon267 0]

I am almost ready to get my A license, and was at z-hills last weekend. the wind was blowing above 14mph so I was grounded for about 2hrs. finally I get the go ahead from one of my instructors to jump, I get on a load, get to 13,000', then the pilot says that the 3 students on board can't jump because the wind kicked up again.
shitty, but what impressed me most was the decision of a video guy with over 12,000 jumps to not jump because he felt uncomfortable about the weather conditions. really impressed me that somebody with that much experience put himself on a weather hold.
I guess that's why he has over 12,000 jumps!!
by the way, the ride down (my first) was pretty cool! pretty fast, too

[mjosparky 4]

When you consider winds and wing loading and such, think of what kind of winds you are willing to jump your F-111, 7 cell reserve in. Then make you decision.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Trae 1]

in reply 2"what impressed me most was the decision of a video guy with over 12,000 jumps to not jump because he felt uncomfortable about the weather conditions. really impressed me that somebody with that much experience put himself on a weather hold. "
........................................................

Good on you for noticing. A lot of highly experienced skydivers place a lot of value on their own and their friends safety. I've noticed that on most DZ's with large numbers of highly experienced jumpers these types tend to share their skills through direct example as much as one on one tutoring. One of the biggest lessons .....TAKE YOUR TIME (don't let the speed freaks make you rush.)

You can learn a lot more by watching with your eyes than by paying through your nose.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I know instructors won't throw you out if conditions are not O.K.

Don't count on that

I agree. Some drop zones, although certainly not all, are likely to overlook borderline or higher winds when students are manifested. Students/tandems bring in more money per slot on the aircraft.

Everybody assumes their DZ is safe, and until they start seeing many other DZs, especially when there isn't a boogie going on, they usually don't have any other standards to compare standard paractices to.

It's pretty easy to convince new jumpers that everything is done in the safest possible manner. Unfortunately, at some places, everything isn't done that way.

[topper 0]

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I am almost ready to get my A license, and was at z-hills last weekend. the wind was blowing above 14mph so I was grounded for about 2hrs. finally I get the go ahead from one of my instructors to jump, I get on a load, get to 13,000', then the pilot says that the 3 students on board can't jump because the wind kicked up again.

If this happens and you have to ride the plane down, do you get your ticket refunded, or is it tough you took the ride up?

Or is every DZ different ?

Chris

[AFFI 0]

Winds are not all the same. 14 MPH is not the only guideline I personally use in deciding whether or not to let a student jump but also the temperament of the winds where gusts and directions are concerned as well at the status of the students ability. If the wind is 13MPH but very gusty, say 1 MPH gusting to 13 MPH this may not be a very good set of conditions to jump in. If you find yourself in a worse case scenario under your reserve landing off in a tight landing area with a wind speed of 13 MPH and it suddenly drops to 0 MPH when you are at 10 feet or vice-versa you must be prepared for such contingencies. I would rather sit one out because catching a load the next day comes much sooner that waiting for a broken bone to heal.

I once read a quote in a Parachutist article that stuck with me, it went something like:
“On windy days, the experienced skydivers sit by the beer line and watch the inexperienced skydivers get experienced”.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Winds are not all the same. 14 MPH is not the only guideline I personally use in deciding whether or not to let a student jump but also the temperament of the winds where gusts and directions are concerned as well at the status of the students ability. If the wind is 13MPH but very gusty, say 1 MPH gusting to 13 MPH this may not be a very good set of conditions to jump in. If you find yourself in a worse case scenario under your reserve landing off in a tight landing area with a wind speed of 13 MPH and it suddenly drops to 0 MPH when you are at 10 feet or vice-versa you must be prepared for such contingencies. I would rather sit one out because catching a load the next day comes much sooner that waiting for a broken bone to heal.

I once read a quote in a Parachutist article that stuck with me, it went something like:
“On windy days, the experienced skydivers sit by the beer line and watch the inexperienced skydivers get experienced”.

Another good rule is that if you feel the need to ask if it's too windy, it is.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stillalive 0]

Besides the all this good advice, + contacting local airports etc...
Does anybody use or think it could be reliable to use one of those hand held portable wind meters?
eg. ("Kestrel wind meter")
Maybe not as the only source, but as an on the D.Z. last minute check.

------ LIFT ME UP!! ------

[mjosparky 4]

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If this happens and you have to ride the plane down, do you get your ticket refunded, or is it tough you took the ride up?

Or is every DZ different ?

You are paying for altitude, not a jump.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stillalive 0]

[In reply to]I know instructors won't throw you out if conditions are not O.K. but,,,

[schon267 0]

the other 2 students and I got our ticket refunded only because t.k hayes is a great guy! he didn't have to do that for us, but what he said was that since we we're under their supervision and it was their call, he refunded our ticket.
I guess if it's your own call, you lose the price of the ticket to 13,500'

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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You are paying for altitude, not a jump.

Sparky

Experienced jumpers are paying for solely altitude. Students are paying for many things, guidance being among the foremost. I have landed with students on many occasions due to weather; they never pay.

[mjosparky 4]

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You are paying for altitude, not a jump.

Sparky

Experienced jumpers are paying for solely altitude. Students are paying for many things, guidance being among the foremost. I have landed with students on many occasions due to weather; they never pay.

You are right; I was just talking about experienced jumpers. Your policy on refund and that of Tony K. is great. I know it costs you both money to make that call, but it says volumes about your integrity.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Quote

Winds are not all the same. 14 MPH is not the only guideline I personally use in deciding whether or not to let a student jump but also the temperament of the winds where gusts and directions are concerned as well at the status of the students ability. If the wind is 13MPH but very gusty, say 1 MPH gusting to 13 MPH this may not be a very good set of conditions to jump in. If you find yourself in a worse case scenario under your reserve landing off in a tight landing area with a wind speed of 13 MPH and it suddenly drops to 0 MPH when you are at 10 feet or vice-versa you must be prepared for such contingencies. I would rather sit one out because catching a load the next day comes much sooner that waiting for a broken bone to heal.

I once read a quote in a Parachutist article that stuck with me, it went something like:
“On windy days, the experienced skydivers sit by the beer line and watch the inexperienced skydivers get experienced”.

Another good rule is that if you feel the need to ask if it's too windy, it is.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

When the "split" on gusts gets greater than 5 knots, people get bruised on landings, so the better schools keep students on the ground until winds calm down.

[riggerrob 643]

The original 14 knot wind limit was written by the military back when round parachutes were fashionable and it was primarily designed to reduce dragging injuries after landing.
When skydiving schools converted to large squares (in the 1980s) they vastly reduced inuries until winds got up around 14 knots. This is because student square canopies start backing up in winds over 14 knots.
Backwards PLFs have always been the most difficult landings to master and have always caused the most injuries - under round or square canopies.
So now we have two reasons for not dropping students when winds exceed 14 knots.

[ntrprnr 0]

I was at the door of the plane the other day, getting ready to board. I was watching the trees, and other canopies come in for landing... I scratched myself off the load. Everyone else went up, and they all came down fine. But for me, the winds just felt a little too heavy.

Gotta tell you, I think it took more guts for me to scratch than to jump normally. Walking back to the tent, I swore everyone was watching me. Then one of the "pros" (guy with thousands of jumps) said to me, "winds a little weird today, huh? You made the right decision." I then felt much better.

Only person you have to answer to for scratching yourself off a load because of conditions, is you.

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."