popsjumper 2 #26 January 17, 2012 QuoteI don't have my "I" rating, but I think that's (3K) an unnecessarily high hard-deck for a true "clear & pull", even for a student, even in these days of higher pull altitudes and snivelly canopies. What do you instructors out there (especially the long-timers) think? Personally, I think that altitude threshold is a personal issue. If Fallaholic, or any other student, wants to have a 3K threshold then so be it. I'd give them the info needed to make best decisions for themselves but the important part is he has a plan now. Yes, I agree that there is more going on here than simply picking a number but keep in mind...we're talking about students here. They'll be learning additional stuff as they roll along. I too, would consider that high but then it's not my comfort level and parachute we're dealing with. For students: I give them no altitude threshold. I ASK them what they would choose. "High altitude deploy the main....what does "high altitude" mean to you? "Low altitude deploy the reserve....what does "low altitude" mean to you? I let them think about it, maybe provide some guidance if needed such as if they pick something waaaay out of the ballpark. You'd be amazed how many pick 2500ft right at first. It's because they already have that number drilled in as Decision Altitude...and that's a good thing. It's what I'm trying to guide them to...as students. I do explain to them that as they gain experience and become more comfortable with skydiving and handling EPs, then that altitude threshold will change. I tell them that it's a personal decision. I tell them they now have a plan for emergency exits and to stick to it...do not let anyone else talk you into something lower. YOU need to make that decision on your own and only then when you are ready.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #27 January 17, 2012 Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #28 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #29 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. Without turning a few points first... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #30 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. Without turning a few points first... ..with videoMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #31 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. I would agree with you. But as one of those law type guys....what would you tell a student? edited to add: the SIM nor PIM does not care if you are in freefall or on a clear and pull....it is MINIMUM opening altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 January 17, 2012 Quote You don't see me performing surgery without a license, do you? ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #33 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. Quote I would agree with you. But as one of those law type guys....what would you tell a student? I would tell him that his main-pull hard deck is 3,000, and that if he pulls below 3K, he'd better be prepared to explain himself. I'd tell him that if he finds himself below 2,000, to go right to silver. Between 2,000 and 3,000, I'd use Popsjumper's approach (see above). Quote edited to add: the SIM nor PIM does not care if you are in freefall or on a clear and pull....it is MINIMUM opening altitude. It is a minimum main opening altitude in order to not be deemed to have violated the SIM, for whatever that's worth. But does that also necessarily require a student to go right to silver if he finds himself at, say, 2,600? I don't think it does. That is even more the case when the jump is an un-planned, pilot-ordered exit, being done as a hop & pop, and thus with sub-terminal vertical velocity, plus the benefit of forward-throw relative wind to aid canopy deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #34 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote You don't see me performing surgery without a license, do you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #35 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote You don't see me performing surgery without a license, do you? Don't forget to turn your head first."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hillson 0 #36 January 17, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote That's with a planned jump, not a pilot-instructed emergency exit, Kinda hard to have an opening at 3 when you're exiting at 2, eh? Yeah. I just think it's nuts - well, overkill - to exit at 2,700 and go right to silver. I would agree with you. But as one of those law type guys....what would you tell a student? edited to add: the SIM nor PIM does not care if you are in freefall or on a clear and pull....it is MINIMUM opening altitude. FWIW I went over this on a coach jump this weekend for my student progression and whether there were differences between FJC acft EPs and now. Assuming we're not riding the plane down pull silver at 3000 hit your main. There was the acknowledged grey area of 500 feet but we were told until we had experience of a sub terminal opening we should pull silver...and then discuss with your instructors after some hnp. Did two from 5k this weekend. First was 5 sec delay and pull and was open by ~4k. Second was immediate clear and pull. Was open by ~4.4-4.5k (owing for alti inaccuracy). Had a discussion with instructors after about acft emergencies and opening altis and this was my determination: 2500 or less is my hard deck. Pull silver. Above that (and I'm not talking at 2501 ft) but below 3000 I'm confident that there is altitude to go to my main...with the caveat that I can always hit silver first. I've had no problem getting stable from any orientation on exit (yet) but I know it is something to put into the decision matrix. Not that is matters but my routine on the ride up is at 1k remove buckle, touch silver, remove helmet. At 2.5k do a full handle check, and at 3,4,5k (my student deployment altis as it were) look alti, look window, touch hackey. Obviously EP, checks etc higher as is std but want a good sight picture and a plan if all goes to shit lower. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
