masterrigger1 2 #26 January 9, 2012 Quote Repack cycles have little to do with the periodic preventive maintenance to be performed by the owner/operator of the equipment. First, the owner by himself is not allowed (by regulations) to do more than simple cleaning and assembly neccesary for transport purposes. ( the intent of the rule was written way back in the day when you had a belly wart...) Quote It is incumbent upon the operator to assure that the equipment is maintained in airworthy condition. In neither CFR 65 or CFR 105 is there any regulation that holds the owner or operator to an airworthy standard unless he or she is a certified rigger. In fact, until a person holds a rigger certificate, he or she cannot make a legal "airworthy" determination. Quote The rigger's certification of airworthiness lasts for as long as it takes the ink on his signature to dry or until the rig goes out the door of his shop. The rigger's certification last as long as the rig is in service with a valid date and signature. I just had this conversation with the FAA about 4 days ago. The only entity that can ground or take out a rig of service mid-cycle, legally, is a FAA inspector. Sure A DZO can not let you jump, but he or she cannot change the status of the rig's airworthiness. ....unless the seal somehow gets broken!Then, it's a different story. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #27 January 9, 2012 QuoteIn neither CFR 65 or CFR 105 is there any regulation that holds the owner or operator to an airworthy standard unless he or she is a certified rigger. In fact, until a person holds a rigger certificate, he or she cannot make a legal "airworthy" determination. So who is responsible for the airworthiness of a parachute system at the time it is jumped? QuoteThe rigger's certification last as long as the rig is in service with a valid date and signature. I just had this conversation with the FAA about 4 days ago. The only entity that can ground or take out a rig of service mid-cycle, legally, is a FAA inspector. Sure A DZO can not let you jump, but he or she cannot change the status of the rig's airworthiness. ....unless the seal somehow gets broken! It is not possible for a rigger to certify airworthiness without knowledge of perfect events. For example, I can check an AAD to see if it passes a self check and to see if it will need maintenance soon, but I cannot guarantee the battery will last six months, or that the display won't ink-blot. It is, in fact, the owner's responsibility to ensure his equipment is safe to jump, and to bring it to a rigger whenever it needs service, whether scheduled or unscheduled. I have this conversation with the FAA on occasion, too. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #28 January 9, 2012 Quote So who is responsible for the airworthiness of a parachute system at the time it is jumped? ...the pilot; that is the sole responsible party. Quote It is not possible for a rigger to certify airworthiness without knowledge of perfect events. For example, I can check an AAD to see if it passes a self check and to see if it will need maintenance soon, but I cannot guarantee the battery will last six months, or that the display won't ink-blot. I never said that a rigger had to certify airworthiness after the fact! I simply stated that the certification last until... Quote It is, in fact, the owner's responsibility to ensure his equipment is safe to jump, and to bring it to a rigger whenever it needs service, whether scheduled or unscheduled. Show me a regulation were it states that! Quote I have this conversation with the FAA on occasion, too. Either you are talking to some different FAA people or they have since changed their stance and you have not talked to them since... Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,363 #29 January 9, 2012 Hi Mark & Mark, I'm not going to jump into this except that I have found that the FAA's 'position' on things like this are only until you get a newer/different FAA-type to talk to. The next time either of you have a similar conversation with an FAA-type, tell him/her to put in writing. I'll bet that they will defer. Just my experience; oh, and back in the 60's at a fairly large meeting with the FAA, they told us it was the user who was responsible. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #30 January 9, 2012 Quote I'm not going to jump into this except that I have found that the FAA's 'position' on things like this are only until you get a newer/different FAA-type to talk to. The next time either of you have a similar conversation with an FAA-type, tell him/her to put in writing. I'll bet that they will defer. Just my experience; oh, and back in the 60's at a fairly large meeting with the FAA, they told us it was the user who was responsible. Jerry, Real quick ( I am super busy...), since the '60s meeting you are referring to there has not been any regulation or statute written that supports their (FAA) conclusion at that time. Also since that time, only a few pilots and riggers have ever been reprimanded for non-airworthy gear. I am totally un-aware of any "owner" being held responsible by the FAA...or any regulation that can hold them accountable. Gotta go, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #31 January 9, 2012 Quote I am totally un-aware of any "owner" being held responsible by the FAA...or any regulation that can hold them accountable. Gotta go, MEL The operator has TOTAL responsibility for airworthiness! The person jumping it is THE ONE to say each and every time he straps it on whether, in his opinion, the rig is airworthy. The feds don't care whether we jump with bedsheets and kite string as long as the TSO'd harness and reserve are "re-certified" by a rigger as required periodically. Regulations be-damned. I still feel that I, the operator, am the sole party responsible for the condition and jumpability of my equipment. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #32 January 9, 2012 Quote The operator has TOTAL responsibility for airworthiness! The person jumping it is THE ONE to say each and every time he straps it on whether, in his opinion, the rig is airworthy. The feds don't care whether we jump with bedsheets and kite string as long as the TSO'd harness and reserve are "re-certified" by a rigger as required periodically. Regulations be-damned. I still feel that I, the operator, am the sole party responsible for the condition and jumpability of my equipment. Jon, It may be a feeling, but it is NOT a regulatory requirement. Again, show me the regulation and I will be happy to look at it. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #33 January 10, 2012 QuoteIt may be a feeling, but it is NOT a regulatory requirement. Again, show me the regulation and I will be happy to look at it. MEL This is my point exactly! There is no regulatory requirement for the jumper to determine or ascertain airworthiness -ever- BUT Woe to those who do not do so every time they get on an aircraft with the intention of jumping out. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #34 January 10, 2012 § 91.7 Quote(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. (b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur. Sounds good enough to me."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #35 January 10, 2012 Thanks for helping prove my point! In the info that you provided it clearly shows that the PILOT is responsible for airworthiness of his/her aircraft. The reason that a pilot has that responsibilty is that he/she has been trained and certified to understand what is considered airworthy. This is considered a standard..... A non-certificated owner of a parachute system does not have that standard and simply cannot be held to that standard. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #36 January 10, 2012 QuoteThanks for helping prove my point! In the info that you provided it clearly shows that the PILOT is responsible for airworthiness of his/her aircraft. The reason that a pilot has that responsibilty is that he/she has been trained and certified to understand what is considered airworthy. This is considered a standard..... A non-certificated owner of a parachute system does not have that standard and simply cannot be held to that standard. MEL Non-rigger pilots have not been trained to determine airworthiness of parachute systems. Riggers cannot predict future airworthiness of rigs once they leave their lofts. Just as aircraft operators are responsible for returning their aircraft for scheduled or unscheduled service, parachute operators are, too. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #37 January 10, 2012 Quote It is, in fact, the owner's responsibility to ensure his equipment is safe to jump, and to bring it to a rigger whenever it needs service, whether scheduled or unscheduled. QuoteShow me a regulation were it states that! WARNING! OPINION STATEMENT TO FOLLOW! Well, there's regulations and there's common sense. You argue regulations, others are arguing common sense. Nobody is saying that your references to regulations are wrong, Yep, that's what the regs say! However, I'll go with common sense nearly every time. Regulations say the pilot and/or the rigger. Common sense says the jumper. Some pilots wouldn't know a safe-to-jump rig if it slapped them in the face. Few, knowledgeable or not, even check that stuff. And how is a rigger supposed to know what happened to that rig he certified once it leaves his hands? Regs, OK. Common sense? Hell yeah!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douggarr 6 #38 January 10, 2012 I couldn't agree more with Airtwardo. Inspect your gear thoroughly. Before each jump, I make sure that every moving part is moveable. This means the reserve pin, ripcord handle, and cutaway cables. Not just before each jump day. Each jump. On busy DZs you never know who's going to futz with your gear when you're not looking at it. Not as maniacal on the plastic casing and separate gear bag. But I do keep my rig in my office where the temperature is a constant 70 degrees F.SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #39 January 10, 2012 Quote Non-rigger pilots have not been trained to determine airworthiness of parachute systems. No, they have been trained to follow regulations pertaining to their aircraft and it's operation. Quote Riggers cannot predict future airworthiness of rigs once they leave their lofts. I never said that they had to..... Quote Just as aircraft operators are responsible for returning their aircraft for scheduled or unscheduled service, parachute operators are, too. ...and that regulation is ????.... Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #40 January 10, 2012 Quote Well, there's regulations and there's common sense. You argue regulations, others are arguing common sense. Nobody is saying that your references to regulations are wrong, Yep, that's what the regs say! However, I'll go with common sense nearly every time. Pops, You are correct in saying that regs and common sense are two entirely different worlds. The problem with the common sense theory is that it is becoming more and more lacking in the younger generation of skydivers. Hell, half of them can't find the cut-away handle when they need it and about 90% of them can not even pack a parachute, much less tell you how the system works. Rant over! BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #41 January 10, 2012 >The reason that a pilot has that responsibilty is that he/she has >been trained and certified to understand what is considered airworthy. I'm a pilot and was never "trained and certified" to understand what is considered airworthy. I rely on advice and common sense (most of which I learned fixing cars) - and honestly a lot of trust of FBO's - to make sure the airplanes I fly are airworthy. I've looked at maintenance logs for some troublesome aircraft but honestly if someone filled them out wrong or did the wrong repair I would likely have no idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #42 January 10, 2012 Quote The problem with the common sense theory is that it is becoming more and more lacking in the younger generation of skydivers. Hell, half of them can't find the cut-away handle when they need it and about 90% of them can not even pack a parachute, much less tell you how the system works. Yes. You got me there....unfortunately. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #43 January 10, 2012 Quote>The reason that a pilot has that responsibilty is that he/she has >been trained and certified to understand what is considered airworthy. I'm a pilot and was never "trained and certified" to understand what is considered airworthy. I rely on advice and common sense (most of which I learned fixing cars) - and honestly a lot of trust of FBO's - to make sure the airplanes I fly are airworthy. I've looked at maintenance logs for some troublesome aircraft but honestly if someone filled them out wrong or did the wrong repair I would likely have no idea. I'd like to add to that and say... Our entire sport is based on trust. Trust the YOU did your job properly so that I can do MY job properly. IMO, as hard as it may be to some with softer POVs, those who violate that trust should be booted out the door on their ass, never to return.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #44 January 10, 2012 Quote Hell, half of them can't find the cut-away handle when they need it and about 90% of them can not even pack a parachute, much less tell you how the system works. That had better be an exaggeration, or I suggest that whoever the instructors involved are should have their ratings stripped. hey are the ones signing the newer generation off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #45 January 10, 2012 Quote IMO, as hard as it may be to some with softer POVs, those who violate that trust should be booted out the door on their ass, never to return. Wow!! I'd have been gone 30 years ago. Sometime the light doesn't come on right away. Sometimes, we have to re-teach. And sometimes, re-re-teach. The bottom line, I've found, is the teacher has to be more stuborn than the student? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #46 January 11, 2012 In Reply To QuoteIMO, as hard as it may be to some with softer POVs, those who violate that trust should be booted out the door on their ass, never to return. Agree with that 100% QuoteThe bottom line, I've found, is the teacher has to be more stuborn than the student? Blush And the problem with that, is ???.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #47 January 11, 2012 Quote I'm a pilot and was never "trained and certified" to understand what is considered airworthy. Bill, I am surpised you think that. The syllabus for a student pilot includes checking the condition of the prop, a tire's air pressure, control surface checks, looking for broken hinge pins, oil leaks, brake operation, and etc....before takeoff. The syllabus also includes guides to the required minimum equipment for a VFR flight vs a IFR flight. The big ticket item here is the pre-flight check list that most pilots use (you don't???). When using this check list you are in fact checking the airworthiness of that aircraft at that point and time. For instance, if you have low oil pressure, do you consider it to be airworthy? ...or a mag that falls below the required rpm?? I think not, therefore, you the pilot, have just determined "airworthiness" to the degree that I refered to previously. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #48 January 11, 2012 QuoteThanks for helping prove my point! In the info that you provided it clearly shows that the PILOT is responsible for airworthiness of his/her aircraft. The reason that a pilot has that responsibilty is that he/she has been trained and certified to understand what is considered airworthy. This is considered a standard..... A non-certificated owner of a parachute system does not have that standard and simply cannot be held to that standard. MEL I was making the point that even though a pilot is not certificated to certify the plane as airworthy, they go thru their checklist and if something isn't right, they get it looked at. Each individual skydiver is a PILOT, just not one that must be certified under the FAA. Student pilots are shown how to pre-flight an aircraft, just like student skydivers are shown how to pre-flight a rig. If they don't do it, or find a deficiency but ignore it and continue with the flight, it should be on them, not on the rigger/jump pilot."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #49 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuote Hell, half of them can't find the cut-away handle when they need it and about 90% of them can not even pack a parachute, much less tell you how the system works. That had better be an exaggeration, or I suggest that whoever the instructors involved are should have their ratings stripped. hey are the ones signing the newer generation off. Well, guy...again, you are off the mark. Apparently you think that instructors are responsible for your life-long learning. No. Depending on your definitions of "responsible": I can somewhat agree that, as an instructor, it's my "responsibility" to ensure that the student under my care is presented with the information that he needs to be able to skydive safely. I can teach him and quiz him to verify learning at the time of the teaching. What I can't do is be "responsible" for anything he does after leaving my direct care. If you were an instructor, you would know that students sometimes can demonstrate what you taught them today and by tomorrow will have forgotten everything you taught. Yes, I can re-teach tomorrow and still, no matter what, ol' Stu can, and often will, forget once again. An instructor cannot chase ol' Stu around for the rest of his career re-teaching him every day. Unfortunately, we see it all too often; students learn just enough, for just enough period of time, to get through training and/or to get that progression card signed off and/or to get that next-level license.....and them promptly forget what they "learned". A case in point: B-license jumper had a no-pull AAD activation. Turns out that her claim to fame was, "my right shoulder was dislocated and I didn't know what to do." Amazing, eh? That's what we are talking about...way too many people don't really know what the fuck they are doing. There's jumpers and there's skydivers. What's the difference? -Jumpers like to jump out of airplanes. -Skydivers do too except they know what they are doing. I want every youngster out there to become skydivers. Now, having said all that. Yes, there are some really piss-poor instructors out here that pass students on when they shouldn't.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #50 January 11, 2012 QuoteQuote I'm a pilot and was never "trained and certified" to understand what is considered airworthy. Bill, I am surpised you think that. I'll stick my unasked-for nose in here and say in defense of Bill: I think Bill was talking about how he, as a pilot, was not trained on how to verify the "airworthiness" of skydiving equipment. In that light, I disagree with airplane pilots being held responsible for anything like that. I could be wrong.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
