captain1976 0 #1 January 2, 2012 Looks like 2011 had less than half the fatalities of any previous year. Lets keep up the good work and get it down to nothing. Well, I know that won't happen but we're off to a good startYou live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #2 January 2, 2012 Really? Are you kidding? We had stupid accidents involving very experienced skydivers that should never have happened. Two AFFI's colliding in the landing pattern? You must be kidding. We need to do some work on judgment in 2012.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #3 January 2, 2012 I haven't been keeping track but if 32 is the average I feel like we were closer to that number than to half of it. What was the real number? Of course, none of these "numbers" are acceptable. I wish my friends would stop dying. But, if we did, in fact, halve the average then, I can take some solace in the fact that only half the people died this year.My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #4 January 2, 2012 And 14 of the 24 were under a fully open functioning canopy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 136 #5 January 2, 2012 Half of what? Are you talking worldwide? US? North America? The incidents forum here list 24 total civilian US fatalities in 2011 (and I think at least 4 more in Canada). I'm pretty sure that is more than last year. Here's the US list (excludes purely military fatalities): Fatality - Perris, California - 27 - December 2011 Fatality? - Lake Wales, FL - 12 November 2011 2 Tandem fatality X2 - MESQUITE, Nev -9 October 2011 Northumberland NY Fatality Sept 18th 2011 Fatality - Air Capitol, Kansas - 13th September 2011 Fatal - Midair Elsinore - 26 Aug 2011 Fatality - Snohomish WA - 18 AUG 2011 Fatality - Lost Praire. MT - 30 July 2011 Fatality - Skydive The Farm, GA - 23 July 2011 Fatality - Skydive Hawaii - 10 July 2011 Fatality - Hollister CA - 17 June 2011 Fatality - Skydive Cross Keys - 27 May 2011 Fatality - Skydive Chicago - 8 May 2011 Fatality - Ft Morgan,CO 5/7/11 Landing Incident Fatality - Palatka - 30 April 2011 Fatality - Canopy collision - Perris - 4/15/2011 2 Fatality *2 - Perris, CA - 31 March 2011 Fatality - Cross Keys - 3/25/11 Wamego, Kansas fatality - 6th March 2011 2 Fatality * 2 - Spaceland, TX - Mar. 2, 2011 Perris fatality 2/27/11 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leandercool 0 #6 January 2, 2012 Skydiving is evolving really fast, but remember that we're just at the beginning of the evolution. It's like cars: WE are still the oldtimers ;) In a few years there will be lots of improvements of rules and gear. 24 people is still 24 too much. And if these 24 are just U.S, than there are a lot more than we thought. But still, we are improving.From 0 to 12.000 in 9 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spikes2020 0 #7 January 2, 2012 is it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those? I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris? I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24.... Any statisticians here? this just seems really high.Cheers Jon W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #8 January 2, 2012 Quoteis it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those? I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris? I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24.... Any statisticians here? this just seems really high. Perris had a bad run this year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #9 January 2, 2012 From the USPA website: U.S. Skydiving Fatalities by Year 2010 – 21 2009 – 16 2008 – 30 2007 – 18 2006 – 21 2005 – 27 2004 – 21 2003 – 25 2002 – 33 2001 – 35 2000 – 32 1999 – 27 1998 – 44The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #10 January 2, 2012 Quoteis it me or does Perris CA have a really high number of those? I understand that they jump year round and have more people but still, 4 out of 24 deaths... and there are 2 million skydives a year.... How many skydives at Perris? I wonder what the percentage of skydives at Perris CA to the ratio 4:24.... Any statisticians here? this just seems really high. That's the question~ how MANY skydives were made in total at Perris... Then too you may want to factor in that it's a 'destination' dropzone, meaning a fair percentage of the jumpers may not be 'from' that DZ. Statistics can be manipulated to show pretty much what ever you want to...for example a small 182 DZ that may have had only one fatality and done 1/10th the jumps is statically much more 'dangerous' than Perris if that's all you're looking at. IMHO...Perris has good aircraft, good pilots, open areas to land, a fantastic staff in general. It's just the way the dice roll sometimes...personally I don't think Perris is any more dangerous than anywhere else, and probably quite a bit less so than some DZ's I've visited. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spikes2020 0 #11 January 2, 2012 QuoteThen too you may want to factor in that it's a 'destination' dropzone, meaning a fair percentage of the jumpers may not be 'from' that DZ. I think that might have been what i was trying to get at... Not sure if this is the problem but i have noticed that if you have a lot of jumps say.... 1000 or so and walk on to a new DZ, after your inital inspection of the log book or what ever is required... there is really nothing else..... Maybe large DZs that get a lot of guests could have some pre-brefing or something more.... required before you get to jump. I hate to compare it to air lines but every time you get on the airplane they remind you about the exits and where the life vests are.... I really only pay attention to those two parts as each airplane is different and hides them in different locations... (is my seat my floatation device or is it under it... or between the seats.... just an example) Like i said i dont know if it would help but maybe just an ideaCheers Jon W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #12 January 2, 2012 Quote Maybe large DZs that get a lot of guests could have some pre-brefing or something more.... required before you get to jump. I hate to compare it to air lines but every time you get on the airplane they remind you about the exits and where the life vests are.... I really only pay attention to those two parts as each airplane is different and hides them in different locations... (is my seat my floatation device or is it under it... or between the seats.... just an example) Like i said i dont know if it would help but maybe just an idea It is a good idea, and it's something that I always ask for when I go to a new DZ for the first time (or if I haven't been in a while), if it's not offered. It is offered at a lot of DZs, required at some for the first visit. I encourage newer skydivers to get thorough briefings when they go to new DZs, and I'm always willing to offer one to a visitor to my home DZ. Some DZs are more proactive, others leave it up to the jumper to ask. Perris, in fact, is one of the ones that does a pretty elaborate briefing for the first visit, and as far as I know, it's mandatory for all jumpers new to the DZ regardless of experience. However, since several of the incidents there this year involved locals, it wouldn't have been a relevant factor in those. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #13 January 2, 2012 QuoteFrom the USPA website: U.S. Skydiving Fatalities by Year 2010 – 21 2009 – 16 2008 – 30 2007 – 18 2006 – 21 2005 – 27 2004 – 21 2003 – 25 2002 – 33 2001 – 35 2000 – 32 1999 – 27 1998 – 44 2011 - 25 as far as my records indicate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisward3 0 #14 January 2, 2012 I agree any number is too many however, I'd like to see how many jumps were made, and by how many skydivers. This sport is always welcoming new members (myself included), and I can only assume that more and more jumps are being made every year. If we look solely at the final tally, it looks like it is holding fairly consistent over the past 10+ years. But if we welcomed XXXX number of new skydivers over that time, I'd argue that the percentage of fatalities has gone down. With the training, coaching, and constant supervision ive received since taking up the sport...i'd say we're moving in the right direction (you can decide at what pace). This is a self-regulated sport, and something that alot of the DZOs and experienced jumpers take a lot of pride in maintaining. As annoying as it may be at times to get told I cant go do "this" type of jump or "that"...I know that we are always looking out for our own...and in turn that encourages us all to practice, get better, be more aware, and train...to chase after those new challenges or disciplines that skydiving has to offer. In a sport that poses many dangers and what-ifs...I think we are continuing in the right direction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #15 January 2, 2012 QuoteThis sport is always welcoming new members (myself included), and I can only assume that more and more jumps are being made every year. False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid. Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #16 January 2, 2012 QuotePerris is regarded as one of the world’s foremost facilities and has more than 140,000 jumps per year, Brodsky-Chenfeld said, which is about 5 percent of the 3 million jumps nationally in the United States. Because of the high volume of jumps, the facility is more likely to have tragedies. From HereIt's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #17 January 2, 2012 Quote Perris, in fact, is one of the ones that does a pretty elaborate briefing for the first visit, and as far as I know, it's mandatory for all jumpers new to the DZ regardless of experience. I'd say a statistical anomaly, maybe, like flipping a coin and getting "heads" 5-6 times in a row. It does happen. I've jumped Perris and they have a good DZ with a good safety culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #18 January 2, 2012 QuoteFalse assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid. Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing. True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago. Year Skydiving Fatalities in U.S. Estimated Annual Jumps Fatalities Per 1000 Jumps 2010 21 3.0 million 0.007 2009 16 3.0 million 0.005 2008 30 2.6 million 0.012 2007 18 2.5 million 0.007 2006 21 2.5 million 0.008 2005 27 2.6 million 0.010 2004 21 2.6 million 0.008 2003 25 2.6 million 0.010 2002 33 2.6 million 0.013 2001 35 2.6 million 0.013 2000 32 2.7 million 0.012 So, as usual, in your rush to disparage another poster, you're wrong. I might suggest that you take a look at the way you "talk" to posters on this website. You could do with a little less condescension, and a little more information. Ian ps: For this actually interested, here are the USPA statistics http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspxPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #19 January 2, 2012 His reply didn't seem condescending to me at all. Yours was though.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spikes2020 0 #20 January 2, 2012 Quote Quote Perris is regarded as one of the world’s foremost facilities and has more than 140,000 jumps per year, Brodsky-Chenfeld said, which is about 5 percent of the 3 million jumps nationally in the United States. Because of the high volume of jumps, the facility is more likely to have tragedies. I agree.... thank you for finding those numbers !! Just wondering if it was getting it's percentage of events or way more..... Quote I'd say a statistical anomaly, maybe, like flipping a coin and getting "heads" 5-6 times in a row. It does happen. I've jumped Perris and they have a good DZ with a good safety culture. I agree but sometimes if it does it 10 to 15 times in a row, you do start to question the coin.... It just seemed like a big outlier (not saying that the DZ is un-safe as i have never been there)Cheers Jon W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #21 January 2, 2012 From a statistical point of view, 4/24 is too small a sample size to draw conclusions. If XYZ dropzone had 400 fatalities out of a total of 2400, that would be more meaningful. e.g. A few years ago, two skydivers were killed in a canopy collision at a boogie that takes place for one week, once a year. Those two deaths were about 10 percent of all skydiving deaths in the U.S. that year, but the incident really depended on one guy doing one dumb move. It's useful to look at every incident to see if anything can be learned, but raw percentages can be misleading.You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #22 January 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteFalse assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid. Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing. True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago. The original poster assumed that total jumps by all jumpers was always rising. But just because the average modern jumper makes more jumps per year as you claim, doesn't automatically mean that total jumps per year by all jumpers is always on the rise. Your own data chart shows that to not be true. You can have fewer jumpers, and the more jumps per capita from those that are still jumping, won't necessarily make up for the jump numbers "lost" by having fewer jumpers. Total jumps, and average jumps per jumper, are two different things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 3 #23 January 3, 2012 I read somewhere that Perris has approximately 150,000 jumps a year(?) I don't remember the source. Agreed that numbers can be played with to suit the study. However, don't most other decent size DZs do 15-20K jumps a year? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 136 #24 January 3, 2012 Quote2011 - 25 as far as my records indicate. Could you look at my list above (in post #5, I believe) and let me know what additional one I overlooked? That list is (I think) in reverse chronological order, and I got them from the threads in the incidence forum. (I didn't include purely military fatalities, but did include the death of the british soldier training at Elsinore) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #25 January 3, 2012 QuoteQuote***False assumption, and therefore, the conclusion derived from that assumption is invalid. Membership numbers go up and down, and are not ever-growing. True in that membership is not growing, false on shooting down his statement about number of jumps. The average jumper today makes far more skydives than they did 20 years ago. Year Skydiving Fatalities in U.S. Estimated Annual Jumps Fatalities Per 1000 Jumps 2010 21 3.0 million 0.007 2009 16 3.0 million 0.005 2008 30 2.6 million 0.012 2007 18 2.5 million 0.007 2006 21 2.5 million 0.008 2005 27 2.6 million 0.010 2004 21 2.6 million 0.008 2003 25 2.6 million 0.010 2002 33 2.6 million 0.013 2001 35 2.6 million 0.013 2000 32 2.7 million 0.012 So, as usual, in your rush to disparage another poster, you're wrong. I might suggest that you take a look at the way you "talk" to posters on this website. You could do with a little less condescension, and a little more information. Ian ps: For this actually interested, here are the USPA statistics http://www.uspa.org/AboutSkydiving/SkydivingSafety/tabid/526/Default.aspx I'm shaking my head here. What sprang to mind as I read this post was a quote I read somewhere, I think attributed to Unca Joe Stalin.... " One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is just a statistic". Please advise the family and friends of all the dead people that 2011 was a good year.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
