What's it going to take to slow down canopy landing death and injury rates.

[Reginald 0]

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Sure no-ones to blame but who is responsible for letting these novices loose on such hard ( for them ) to control HP's?

Where in your statement does personal responsibility come into play? How about putting the majority of the responsibility on the people that buy high performance canopies or try HP maneuvers on any canopy without a reasonable progression.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Where in your statement does personal responsibility come into play? How about putting the majority of the responsibility on the people that buy high performance canopies or try HP maneuvers on any canopy without a reasonable progression."
.......................................

I agree that the pilot should have some degree of responsibility for their own actions.

However a large part of this problem is that a lot ( not all) of the victims are NOT sufficiently versed in the degreee of danger that awaits them under their little HP canopies. They are merely folowing others lead.

If they have been encouraged to 'downsize' then whoever is encouraging them or allowing them is also partly to blame (if we want to play the blame game.)

Skydiving involves sharing responsibility with others.
Any skydivers actions can result in hurting others.
It is reasonable to presume that skydivers act responsibly.
It is also reasonable to presume that if they act irresponsiblty or negligently that they can be held accountable for their actions as individuals and collectively.

If you encouraged my friends to hurt themselves needlessly just for some 'Go Fast ' BS ... in my books you'd need re-educating.

[billvon 3,049]

> How about putting the majority of the responsibility on the people
> that buy high performance canopies or try HP maneuvers on any
> canopy without a reasonable progression.

That's the way it is now, and canopy fatalities continue to rise. It clearly isn't working. Now, you can claim that all those fatalities are OK, and it's an acceptable price to pay for personal freedom. But that's more a philosophical point than any sort of solution.

[scrublink 0]

And just when you think there are way too many assholes.

I have to agree. Safety officers used to kick ass and take names. Now at some DZs they are among the least experienced jumpers. Some just have a coaches rating. My theory is that they tend to go along with the owners wishes easier. This is not the type of activity where being a "yes-man" will turn out to just be an annoyance.

I have seen a swooper almost swoop into a spinning prop. Told the S&TA to talk to him. The S&TA saw the swoop and thought it was cool, told me I was jealous.

When I was still just a tadpole, an experienced S&TA got in my face about opening low. I denied it vehemently (almost everybody opened low and denied it at that place and time). I was told to get my shit and get out. I could only jump the next weekend or later and after I talked to him personally. Swallowed my pride and lies and got back in the air the next weekend. His words to me were "Just because everybody is an idiot, doesn't mean you have the experience to be an idiot too." He made sure I got the message and was backed up by the DZO. This doesn't happen much anymore. Maybe at the smaller DZs, but at the larger ones I see all sorts of scary things. People jumping canopies way too advanced for them, instructors thinking that they are so good they don't have to even think about the next jump, you name it. We are going to continue to see people hurt and dead due to stupidity for a long time to come unless the people in charge start to grow a set of balls and take safety more seriously than making money.
S&TA's and DZO's aren't what they used to be IMO.

[scrublink 0]

Some people need a little guidance, som more so. Persnal responsibility doesn't exist for some people. These are the people we need to watch out for. Not so much for them, but for the rest of us. Every time that some one dies under a HP canopy, whether it is due to too quick a progression or just basic lack of skill, puts a black mark on skydiving. The accumulation of black marks invites further scrutiny and regulation.
People need to take resposibility for their actions, but we need to police ourselves so that the people with defectice reasoning and decision making skills don't screw it up for the rest of us.

[skybytch 273]

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At the moment the skydiving industry and gear dealers are apparently locked in a mad rush to push more and more inexperienced people into buying equipment way beyond their abilities.

Bzzzt! Wrong answer.

Having spent most of the past 9 years in the skydiving industry (8 of it selling gear) I can tell you that the majority of gear dealers and manufacturer reps do NOT push ANYONE into ANYTHING. More often they're telling people to slow down, go bigger and be more conservative. Sure there are exceptions, there always are, but they are few.

[tr027 0]

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S&TA's and DZO's aren't what they used to be IMO.

Clearly, without the strong directive ultimatums from Mommy and Daddy (S&TA and DZO) the children will run wild, astray in mischief. Probably 'cause they were not taught enough in the course of their licensing. Oh well.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[mjosparky 4]

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I haven't looked too hard at the numbers, but I'd bet if we removed all the recent canopy deaths we'd be in the midst of the safest period this sport has ever seen.

For what its worth, I think you are right.

Using the numbers for 2001 thru 2005 to date there have been 132 fatalities in the US. Exclude landing related incidents and you have 86 for the same period. That a reduction of about 65%.

2001 – 36/22
2002 – 33/22
2003 – 24/12
2004 – 24/17
2005 – 15/13

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AFFI 0]

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You can’t expect to improve your jive by disjiving other jivers, all that does is interrupt the flow of the universal jive, to which we all serve, by our own individual jive patterns

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I am not too “hip” and up to date on all the lingo floating around but I believe this is one of the very best postings I have ever read potentially worthy of a Pulitzer! Freakydiver had an epiphany to share with the world and I believe it is worth repeating (if I am reading it right).

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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[nicknitro71 0]

As usual Nick, great post.

However, when did Little Johnny take some responsibility? He never did. Let's say he was told not to downsize but he did not and the S&TA told him that he was going to kill himself. But there are no RULES that regulate WL, he did sign the waiver, and he promised the S&TA that he'll be careful. So in the end the S&TA said "you know what, fuck it, jump that thing, your are going to do it anyway some place else".

Nobody did brake any rules beside common sense but that is subjective as well.

The jury will hear the other side of the story too: Johnny was told, Johnny was a consenting adult, the FAA does not have rules on WL, we are a self regulating community and in the end it comes down to personal resonsibility, a thing in the past by the way. So let's blame everybody but Little Johnny.

I can only think about education here but I feel being too rethorical.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[NickDG 23]

In general I would agree Johnny does have some responsibility, and the court would certainly consider that, but skydiving isn't a "general" thing. We all know jumpers who seem to "get it" right away and also those who make one bad decision after another. There isn't much of a safety net for the latter. If I walked out of the courtroom after being sued by Johnny's family completely vindicated I would still feel like I lost the "real" case because Johnny is dead . . .

Start skydiving today and it's a confusing lot of gear, advice, and methods. It's much harder to fathom the signal from the noise than when I started. Couple this with the fact I think of jumpers as being in two categories. There's old Joe who's been jumping for twenty years and there's Johnny who's been at it for two years. If old Joe craters, oh well, he was a great guy, we have a few beers, and move on. If Johnny digs himself a hole, I won't be drinking, or sleeping much that night, because I know deep down that we, the system, or whatever you want to call it, failed him.

As someone already mentioned Instructors and S&TAs have been defanged. I remember when any Instructor, even any Jumpmaster, could ground someone for thirty days with no questions asked. If DZO's won't trust their Instructors with that power, how the hell do they trust them with the first jump students? When was the last time you even remember seeing a warning board? Sometimes it dawns on me that our students are more like guests now, and the up jumpers are merely tolerated and used as a draw and to put on a show for the guests.

I'm not anti-business, I like money, and I like having lot's of it. However, we are going to have to realize that a DZO's job is to keep the DZ in the black, while Instructors are charged with keeping their charges out of the black. We are going to have to find a new way to differentiate those things. Too many fatalities are accepted and forgotten because there is no piper to pay. We've grown to forget that death "isn't" a necessary part of this sport. There are lot more jumpers walking around who had full careers and retired than ones who've died.

The problem is one of balance. Give me the power and in a year I'm pretty sure I could almost snub out all fatalities. Send me your jump plan, your history, tell me about your gear, and then give me a year or so to get back to you as I'm pretty backed up. But, then it wouldn't be skydiving anymore.

There's a middle ground in there somewhere. And we have to find it. What scares me the most is, to my eyes, it doesn't seem like anyone is even looking for it . . .

NickD BASE 194

[NickDG 23]

I just had an interesting exchange via e-mail with a jumper who read me the riot act. They said "freedom" is the point of skydiving and everything else be damned, and I understand that, but there's this . . .

Freedom and Skydiving . . .

It's always amazes me (I'm not talking about you) that most who espouse "freedom" in skydiving, whatever the cost, are the ones who are all booty and helmeted up and sporting every battery operated gizmo there is . . .

Freedom doesn't really have anything to do with skydiving anymore. It's the reason so many of us went to, okay, we can call it the "dark side" but it really isn't, it’s the free side. It's the freedom to choose when, where, and how without political influences. The good feeling I get making three jumps at the DZ by AFF-ing a couple of levels, making a tandem, and putting someone through water training is just as easily achieved by sleeping in, drinking all day, and busting one off our local tower later that night. Actually, it's much better, if freedom is the entire point.

There's no way to regulate if you don't know the full meaning of freedom. Without that, you'll only know one trick. And that trick is all about pushing without knowing when to pull back . . .

NickD BASE 194

[jlmiracle 7]

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just had an interesting exchange via e-mail with a jumper who read me the riot act. They said "freedom" is the point of skydiving and everything else be dammed,

Well, I hope this pricks freedom doesn't interfer with my safety and my skydiving!

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[mjosparky 4]

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They said "freedom" is the point of skydiving and everything else be damned, and I understand that, but there's this . .

Their "freedom" ends when it adversely affects someone else. These same people that claim they are adults and it is their right to do as they please forget that they are doing this on someone else’s dime. It’s not their airplane, not their DZ and there are other people in the air and on the ground that are affected by their action. If they want to be treated like adults they should act like an adult. This means foreseeing the adverse affects of selfish behavior.

Sparky

Good posts Nick.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[FrogNog 1]

Who here isn't downsizing as hard or fast because (at least) one of their friends is dead?

I think local funerals slow down canopy landing deaths and injury rates. Of course, that's a situation that will reach some sort of stasis; it won't trend toward zero rate on its own.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Cloudi 0]

You got that right. I would invite anyone to sit in on a day at PD (the only one I can speak for, but I'm sure others work just as hard). You might feel like you're banging your head against the wall all day, too. Every now and then...someone hears us, the little light above their head goes on, and they spend a little more time learning to fly what they have before skipping two sizes to jump a "hot" canopy. Not everyone will listen, but when they do, it's magic.
I can't imagine any gear manufacturer or dealer would push a canopy on someone who isn't ready for it. Most (if not all) are looking for repeat business, not a quick sale. Think about it.

Watching skilled canopy pilots swoop is a beautiful thing to see, but watching someone dig out of the corner as you turn away so you don't have to see them pound in, in my opinion, sucks. Maybe one day, learning to fly your current canopy will be more impressive than just surviving (or not) a hp ride. Well, I can dream...

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[RayLosli 11]

phillbo:
"Since the Skydive and the Canopy ride are 2 different parts of the jump, why not regulate them as such. Current license requirements for the Skydive portion of the jump and new licensing requirements for the Canopy portion of the jump. Prove your capable and then you can downsize, in a controled enviroment. "
---------------------------------

Phillbo that sounds like an outstanding Idea.
I think on top of all other requirements that all new AFF graduates do. They should also be told that they now have to meet a mandatory number of Canopy flight coaching jumps given by a qualified USPA rated, Canopy Skills Coach.
.

[nicknitro71 0]

I feel it man, the sarcasm

Memento Audere Semper

903