Marisan 0 #76 May 8, 2011 Another http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4112495;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread The clock is ticking boys and girls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #77 May 8, 2011 QuoteAnother http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4112495;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread The clock is ticking boys and girls.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #78 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote I do see the situation for what it is. I see people using this as an excuse to further their efforts to ban HP turns and canopies. And what I see is paranoia. If you are not part of the problem you have nothing to fear. Sparky Now you sound like Homeland Security when they trample peoples rights... Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #79 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote If the FAA starts asking questions and we can provide real data on trend analysis and what we're doing to reveres or mitigate more we come off as much more professional than just banning/creating new rules. If the FAA starts asking questions (as it appears they already are), it may well be past the point of continuing more of the same; failed self-governance. You "see it" as banning HP canopies and HP turns. I don't see it as anything of the kind. From my hilltop, it is potentially so much bigger than this... Quote failed self-governance This is exactly what I'm referring to. While granted there have been quite a few incidents already this spring, show me the data that shows we've failed as the data I've seen suggests that fatalities have been in steady decline per jumper/jumps made. We can always approve but calling it a failure? Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #80 May 8, 2011 Quote... as the data I've seen suggests that fatalities have been in steady decline per jumper/jumps made. You seem to be hung up on this jumper/jumps metric. What about the number of jumpers on inappropropriate canopies for their skill levels? Is THAT increasing? How about the number of canopy collisions per year? Is THAT increasing? What about serious / fatal landing incidents per planeload (not exceeding 200HP) when there's a gibbous moon, on the 3rd Tuesday of the month? Is that increasing? You can make statistics fit whatever you want, and I get that you're protective over the discipline you enjoy... rightly so. But we've been preaching canopy education for years and people are still dying and being killed under canopy when there's no good reason for it. I don't want HP canopy flight banned. I want swoopers to keep doing what they're doing. And I'd rather not have federal regulation involved. But at the same time we do need to get safer. We all agree on that. The only difference is that you say that we need to continue with the same formula that we've been using, while other are suggesting a definate change that will result in a change in attitude of skydivers, because those are the roots of the problem... Arrogance, Ego and Selfishness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #81 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote I do see the situation for what it is. I see people using this as an excuse to further their efforts to ban HP turns and canopies. And what I see is paranoia. If you are not part of the problem you have nothing to fear. Sparky Now you sound like Homeland Security when they trample peoples rights... You poor picked on child. If the FAA comes down on skydiving you will think “Homeland Security” is a Boy Scout Meeting. They are all powerful and there is no recourse to what they decide. So you go on living in your la la state of mind it’s not my problem anymore. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #82 May 8, 2011 Quote But we've been preaching canopy education for years and people are still dying and being killed under canopy when there's no good reason for it. There's a big difference between preaching about education and actually doing it. Call me crazy but I still think that we should give people the right to make educated decisions that others might not as long as they do not directly impact someone else (canopy collision). If they survive more power to them, if they don't they can be a warning to others. Quote those are the roots of the problem... Arrogance, Ego and Selfishness. Agreed. That's why banning/restricting swooping/HP canopies is not the solution.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #83 May 8, 2011 Another hook turn casualty in the incidents forum.Epidemic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #84 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote I do see the situation for what it is. I see people using this as an excuse to further their efforts to ban HP turns and canopies. And what I see is paranoia. If you are not part of the problem you have nothing to fear. Sparky Now you sound like Homeland Security when they trample peoples rights... You poor picked on child. If the FAA comes down on skydiving you will think “Homeland Security” is a Boy Scout Meeting. They are all powerful and there is no recourse to what they decide. So you go on living in your la la state of mind it’s not my problem anymore. Sparky You're right. There is no appeals process to FAA fines and judgements. Yep, only a child in a la la state of mind would want actual analysis of the data we have (also determine what we don't have) so we can base our reactions on facts. A mature adult apparently prefers reactionary half cocked heresay and fear mongering...Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #85 May 8, 2011 Do you have any idea how incredibly ridiculous you are starting to sound. “You keep thinking Butch, that’s what you are good at.” Door, SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #86 May 8, 2011 QuoteDo you have any idea how incredibly ridiculous you are starting to sound. “You keep thinking Butch, that’s what you are good at.” Door, Sparky What have I said that's ridiculous? Is Lodi not in process of appealing the fines/judgement they received for improper maintenance? Do you think we're better off making decisions without more facts and root cause analysis?Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #87 May 8, 2011 fines? We're talking RULES not fines. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marisan 0 #88 May 8, 2011 I can see anything with a wingloading of under 1.1 being banned. Just think what that means: A new main, a new reserve and a new harness. I don't know what the wing loadings are on Tandems but they are sure to be affected as well. And all because swoopers won't listen. (Bolas, I'm looking at you) I've said it before and I'll say it again. The margin for error is just too small. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #89 May 8, 2011 QuoteWe havent bounced one off an aircraft in flight since Otay 30 years ago right? Actually in the last few years we've had at least two skydiver aircraft collisions NOT related to a botched exit. One was Gus Wing a camera flyer, and the jumpship he had exited from earlier. He was under parachute and the A/C clipped and killed him. The other I can think of was a pilot doing a sunset load flyby, and managed to put an Otter wing through a guys parachute at about 60 feet. He lived.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,099 #90 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote I do see the situation for what it is. I see people using this as an excuse to further their efforts to ban HP turns and canopies. And what I see is paranoia. If you are not part of the problem you have nothing to fear. Sparky Now you sound like Homeland Security when they trample peoples rights... The only right I see you arguing for is the right to endanger other people while doing what you want where you want.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PapaSmurf 1 #91 May 8, 2011 You forgot about this one too; Collisions between skydivers and airplanes don’t always favor the machine, however. On Nov. 21, 1993, a freefalling jumper collided with a Piper PA-28-161 Cherokee at 5,700 feet msl, crushing its vertical stabilizer. The parachutist survived the impact, only to witness the crippled airplane spiraling out of control. All four people on board died when the aircraft struck terrain. The Cherokee had departed Red Hook, N.Y., at 1 p.m., destined for Bedford, Mass. About an hour into the flight, the aircraft was passing over Northampton Airport in Northampton, Mass. Above and ahead of the Cherokee, the pilot of a Cessna 210 with five parachutists on board had just issued a “one minute to jump” advisory to Bradley Approach Control, which ATC relayed to all aircraft on the approach frequency. The Cessna pilot also transmitted the same announcement on the Northampton common traffic advisory frequency (CTAF). The Bradley Approach controller failed to warn the Cessna pilot of a VFR target in the vicinity of the jump airplane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #92 May 8, 2011 Quote In March, the United States Parachute Association celebrated Safety Day, and I applaud the effort. I also applaud the renewed focus on canopy safety. I sense sarcasm in this statement Quote We are working in an industry that is constantly changing and evolving, requiring us to improve our skills to stay current. I read this as him pointing pointing out the USPA massive failure to adapt to these evolving changes. Quote The FAA is issuing an updated Sport Parachuting Advisory Circular this spring, with updated best practices for jump pilots and jumpers alike. For those who are just starting out, the circular will be a learning tool. And we all have to learn. The circular will be a interesting read, especially since we are getting more CC and canopy related deaths as they are drafting this . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #93 May 8, 2011 Numbers I have been sent from USPA for airport access files, shows 8 total mid airs, prior to the otter clip @ sunset. Out of all the mid airs, only 2 have been with non activity aircraft. I have no true idea of what the feds are "studying" on the national level or at any one DZ. I have posted into this thread what I have in writing and from voice of what has been said to me directly from Kevin Wills manger FAA airport compliance, his staff airport compliance officer Kathy Brockman and Office of the Associate Administrator for Airports, Deputy Associate Administrator Catherine Lang. Most of my contact has been with Ms. Brockman, who has told me that the FAA is using a number of departments (4) I think, Flight Standards, Airport compliance & field operations, ATC, Airport Safety and Standards, to conduct a national study of skydiving operations and airport compliance issues and they expect it to be done in 10 mos or so ( told this two months ago). While I have not been told what all they are looking into outside of airport compliance, I think it's a safe bet to assume they are looking at all parts of the operation for our activity. This is based on a number of things in the public domain and by what I've been told. The real problem is 90% of skydivers are stupid to heed the warnings nor read the info being published... they only act right when the feds are on the field and they think once the FAA is back in the car and pulling out the drive the problem has gone away.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #94 May 8, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote I do see the situation for what it is. I see people using this as an excuse to further their efforts to ban HP turns and canopies. And what I see is paranoia. If you are not part of the problem you have nothing to fear. Sparky Now you sound like Homeland Security when they trample peoples rights... The only right I see you arguing for is the right to endanger other people while doing what you want where you want. No. Only the right for people to "endanger" themselves.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #95 May 8, 2011 AC 105.2 D It's all ready drafted and public comments closed on Feb. 4th 2011. http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs/afs_ac/you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #96 May 8, 2011 And AC 105.2 D doesn't contain any new information about canopy downsizing and/or low turns. Defintely didn't include any wording that I would consider "a shot across the bow". For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #97 May 8, 2011 QuoteNo. Only the right for people to "endanger" themselves. And the people they kill, the feelings of all the bereaved relatives and friends, the peace of mind of the people who scrape up the bodies, the continued easy access to airports and aircraft, the future of the sport itself.... Tell the whole story, and take your blinkers off.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #98 May 8, 2011 QuoteAnd AC 105.2 D doesn't contain any new information about canopy downsizing and/or low turns. Defintely didn't include any wording that I would consider "a shot across the bow". h. Advanced Parachuting. Many of the safety suggestions presented in this AC are intended primarily for the student parachutist. All student jumps should be made in a controlled training environment. Individual experience and judgment dictate what additional training should be obtained before undertaking more advanced parachuting activities. All parachutists should acquire experience and training before using unfamiliar or high-performance equipment. The "acquire experience and training before using unfamiliar or high-performance equipment." sounds like downsizing to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #99 May 8, 2011 Quote AC 105.2 D It's all ready drafted and public comments closed on Feb. 4th 2011. http://www.faa.gov/...t/draft_docs/afs_ac/ It is not active BTW and probably will not be active until some changes are made. I will post more on this later. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #100 May 8, 2011 Quote QuoteNo. Only the right for people to "endanger" themselves. And the people they kill, No. Hence why I said themselves... Quote the feelings of all the bereaved relatives and friends, the peace of mind of the people who scrape up the bodies, Those people aren't "endangered" just possibly impacted. Quote the continued easy access to airports and aircraft, the future of the sport itself.... Tell the whole story, and take your blinkers off. Most whuffos would probably be surprised our number of deaths is so low... I'm looking at this from all perspectives: from those in our sport in various disciplines, those outside our sport, etc.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
