Why jump at night?

[Ron 10]

Quote

In reality, when would someone all of a sudden be stuck jumping at night?

It has happened to me twice. Once a slow climbing cessna and another time due to ATC routing us around in an otter.

Both times I landed in darkness.

Yet, the only "water" landing I have ever had was swooping a pond.

Jumping at night is a confidence builder and helps if you ever have reduced visibility.

Besides, if someone does not want to jump at night, there is almost nothing that a jumper cannot do with a "C" and there is a waiver process in place.

Personally, I would like to add a cutaway requirement. And proficiency in more than one type of skydiving.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

I think the "D" licensee is "Expert" (not Master)...

They used to say "Master"... I'll see if I can scan mine when I get home.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

Are you guys that are defending this practice really advocating that just because someone has exited an aircraft at night that makes them more of an expert? I can’t think of anything in this sport that you do twice and somehow, magically become proficient at it.

You are more proficient than the person who has never done it.

Quote

Fun jumps and demo jumps are the only time this is ever done outside of meeting the license requirement.

False, I have landed at 'night' twice without planning to do it. It didn't bother me since I had plenty of night jumps. Others wisely stayed in the Aircraft, some got a briefing from me right before exit and jumped.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

I just think if they're saying that they should be required, that they should be required sooner than a D-license.

You can DO them any time after a "B". You just have to show you have done them by "D".

And a reason was given.... A DZO could easily say you have to have a "D" to get on the sunset load. This would mean the person has had two night jumps and would be better prepared for a lower viz landing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[fastphil 0]

Quote

Quote

I think the "D" licensee is "Expert" (not Master)...

They used to say "Master"... I'll see if I can scan mine when I get home.

Sorry Ron, my bad; My D license says expert, I guess that dates me...

[Hellis 0]

Quote

Personally, I would like to add a cutaway requirement.

Why?
Some people are "proud" of having a unused handle
What would you do if someone meets all other requirements but they cutaway?
No D?
Or make them jump a rig with a malfunction?

Jumping a rig you know has a malfunction would probably give nothing. You might as well pull the handles on the ground.
It's not going to be a "suprise".

[billvon 3,057]

>What would you do if someone meets all other requirements but they cutaway?
>No D?

Did you mean "but they don't cutaway?" Then they would either stick with a C, do an intentional cutaway or get a restricted D license.

>Or make them jump a rig with a malfunction?

No, no malfunction required, just a cutaway. The Strong tandem rating used to require a cutaway. There were several ways to accomplish this. I used a chest mount main and would cut that away, then open my regular main. UPT now has a three-canopy rig designed for intentional cutaways.

>Jumping a rig you know has a malfunction would probably give nothing. You
>might as well pull the handles on the ground.

Actually cutting away is a little different. What you learn might surprise you.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Why?

Because people still die from not dealing with a malfunction.

Quote

What would you do if someone meets all other requirements but they cutaway?
No D?
Or make them jump a rig with a malfunction?

Make them jump a rig with a tertiary reserve... Same thing we do for TI's that have not had a mal for Strongs.

Quote

Jumping a rig you know has a malfunction would probably give nothing. You might as well pull the handles on the ground.

Since you have not had a mal.... You base this on???? Having had 9 malfunctions I can tell you that pulling the handles in the air and on the ground are NOT the same.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

OK. I haven;t seen anywhere in the USPA rules, regulation, recommendations, guidelines, literature or anywhere else where D = Expert. Please point it out and let me know if I'm stupid in this or not. If I am, I'll take up the D=Expert torch.

It used to be this way:

A = Beginner
B = Intermediate
C = Advanced
D = Expert

Has USPA quietly gone about removing those designations from all official documents?
I could find no reference to them on the USPA web site. And if so, why?

Attached: My old FAI/USPA D-license, clearly labeled "Expert". Of course, that's from 30 years and 30 lbs ago...

[3mpire 0]

Quote

What would you do if someone meets all other requirements but they cutaway?

Quote

Or make them jump a rig with a malfunction?

I've sat in the back of a 182 and watched a guy with a second harness under his rig go out the door with a third canopy literally in a garbage bag so he could cut it away to meet a requirement for getting his tandem rating.

It "deployed" just fine and he flew it around for a bit before chopping and deploying his main. Looked like a fun time to me, really.

[DSE 5]

Thanks for posting those pix, John. I was hoping someone would post an old license.

[firemedic 7]

Quote

We had a discussion on this some time back. I think it was in the Training forum. I take the position that Night Jumps should only be required for those who, 1. Want to do them and 2. For those who wish to do night demos whether they are Pro Rated or not. Reason being that a D license is required for a competition and a tandem instructor rating. Night tandems are prohibited and competition does not take place at night. My feeling is why make someone prove they can survive 2 night landings uninjured when that is the only time they are going to do so. IMHO It adds no skill to doing tandems or competing.

Nothing in the regs says you can't injure yourself!

Im not sure what your getting at here.

[firemedic 7]

I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

I haven't seen a good answer either.

Then neither of you are reading all the posts.

Hey lets just let every one have a "D" license, just cause, no standards needed, every one gets a trophy!


Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[JerryBaumchen 1,419]

Hi John,

Quote

It used to be this way:

A = Beginner
B = Intermediate
C = Advanced
D = Expert

Not in my day. I do not recall what the A or B were called but the C was called 'Jumpmaster' and, of course, the D was called 'Expert.'

A-661
B-4446
C-3516
D-1543

There used to be little bars that hung below your wings with each title. I seem to remember that the first bar you got was for the B license which I think was called 'Parachutist,' but it has been a few years.

JerryBaumchen

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

I haven't seen a good answer either.

'Ya don't have to like it, ya just have to do it'


It's a requirement because it's about the most basic way of showing you have the skills to handle something out of 'normal' routine.

And it gives you a skill you may need sometime. Skydiving itself was once out of your comfort zone, then ya did it a few times and realized that it wasn't the boggieman...same thing with night jumps.

There's nothing wrong with showing you are able to jump anytime of the day to get a D license.
IF someone is that afraid of the dark, get the 'almost' D license...then give yourself a hug and order up a Shirley Temple to celebrate NEARLY completing the requirements.

I don't think making the 'Expert' or 'Master' parachutist license easier to get is a good idea, if anything they sould add 1/2 a dozen MORE requirements...same with the PRO Rating.

If one is to hold the highest designation in a sport such as ours they should be at least familiar with ALL of it's aspects, not just the ones they like or are easy to do.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[kallend 2,098]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The awards! Yes, indeed. That got skipped in this thread...good catch.

Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

I do think that a D should be at least somewhat more difficult. I do think that D licenses should include night jumps.

and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

And night CRW.

And be on a completed 100 way.

And have competed at nationals...

The possibilities of arbitrary criteria are endless.

Wingsuit night jumps, night CRW, competed at Nationals, and being on a completed 100 way are all electives, determined and planned/trained in advance.

landing well after sunset may not be.

Nonsense. Getting on a sunset load is elective. Choosing to exit at or after sunset is elective.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

Funny, mine says "Master"

So it seems it went from "Expert" to "Master" and back to "Expert" at some point.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Rstanley0312 1]

Quote

Quote

Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

Our normal jumps are "HALO". I presume you mean high-alititude.

The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.

Sunset loads can become night jumps, water landings can happen from bad spots, and accuracy can become necessary if you're blown off-airport by winds. So to be an expert, you should know how to deal with those things. On the other hand, no one accidentally ends up in a wingsuit or at 20,000 feet - they had to plan for that to happen in advance, so there are different paths to take to become versed in those subjects.

True but since when does a jump that is just barely after sunset have the same darkness level that a "night jump" has. They are not even close. I never understood the argument really? You cannot take off and suddenly find yourself doing a night jump classified by the SIM. I enjoy doing a night jump but it is not even close to doing a jump that is just as the sun is setting or right after. A true night jump is a choice just like the other jumps mentioned. I do not think it should be required.
JMHO

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 1]

Quote

Quote

I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

I haven't seen a good answer either.

Then neither of you are reading all the posts.

Hey lets just let every one have a "D" license, just cause, no standards needed, every one gets a trophy!


Matt


Ya! I want a trophy.... a big one that says I am an awesome skydiver.

Seriously though... the other standards make total sense. I think the night jump is a grey area and can be argued either way.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kallend 2,098]

Quote

Funny, mine says "Master"

So it seems it went from "Expert" to "Master" and back to "Expert" at some point.

Doesn't say anything qualitative any more. Just "D" with a number.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,098]

Quote

Quote

Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

Our normal jumps are "HALO". I presume you mean high-alititude.

The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.

Sunset loads can become night jumps,

SURPRISE - the Earth's rotation no longer obeys the laws of physics.

Quote

water landings can happen from bad spots, and accuracy can become necessary if you're blown off-airport by winds. So to be an expert, you should know how to deal with those things.

So why isn't a "D" a requirement to be allowed on a sunset load? Your argument makes no sense.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 5]

Quote

Nonsense. Getting on a sunset load is elective. Choosing to exit at or after sunset is elective.

Sure, getting on the load and even exiting is elective. Having a malfunction is "elective" too.

I kinda doubt that people will realize too late that they didn't elect to be part of a CRW, Wingsuit, 100 way, or Nationals competition.

Sometimes, what looks good in the air isn't the same as what looks good in freefall or under canopy. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't learn that until it's too late to get back in the aircraft.

If you've never been in that situation, then god bless you for having never had a moment of poor judgement. Most every experienced skydiver has at some point.

[billvon 3,057]

>Getting on a sunset load is elective. Choosing to exit at or after sunset is elective.

Agreed. Landing out due to a bad spot is elective. Jumping near water is elective. Jumping with other people is elective. Freefalling for any length of time is elective.

Still, I am glad that freefall time requirements, accuracy requirements, water training requirements and RW requirements are part of the license structure. Even if all those things add risk, and result in a few cranky skydivers.

[dgw 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

Our normal jumps are "HALO". I presume you mean high-alititude.

The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.

Sunset loads can become night jumps, water landings can happen from bad spots, and accuracy can become necessary if you're blown off-airport by winds. So to be an expert, you should know how to deal with those things. On the other hand, no one accidentally ends up in a wingsuit or at 20,000 feet - they had to plan for that to happen in advance, so there are different paths to take to become versed in those subjects.

True but since when does a jump that is just barely after sunset have the same darkness level that a "night jump" has. They are not even close. I never understood the argument really? You cannot take off and suddenly find yourself doing a night jump classified by the SIM. I enjoy doing a night jump but it is not even close to doing a jump that is just as the sun is setting or right after. A true night jump is a choice just like the other jumps mentioned. I do not think it should be required.
JMHO

Well, I read earlier that the USPA requirements for a night jump are that it is carried out between the hours of sunset and sunrise. I don't know if this is correct.

If it is, then at my position on the Earth (about 50 miles north of London), you have about 30 minutes between sunset and the end of civil twighlight, where it is still plenty bright for most of that time. The street lights come on at the end of civil twighlight. I'm not overly keen on lobs in the inky blackness of a New Moon, but I'd have no problem going for a 'night jump' 10 minutes after sunset.

I've done that many times, without having to blindly grope my way back to the packing hangar...