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Quotethe wheel is reinvented.
Since nowadays we are saving the planet from climate change and all I like to think of it as 'recycled stupidity'
It's the green thing to do man - can't be helped
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
I have been following along, i addressed his specific concerns.
The nights jumps are in the wrong spot, they should be with the water training for a B license.
Plus the D should be required for the "I" rating, regardless of type (Manufacturers drove the D for Tandems, USPA conceded), Pre-qualed by the Coach having a C.
Matt
The nights jumps are in the wrong spot, they should be with the water training for a B license.
Plus the D should be required for the "I" rating, regardless of type (Manufacturers drove the D for Tandems, USPA conceded), Pre-qualed by the Coach having a C.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
QuoteQuoteQuoteFor every skydiver that dies in the water or after dark, how many die due to poor canopy flying over land in broad daylight? Required night training is like required deck chair arranging lessons on the Titanic.
Which is why many of us in the sport are saying to raise the standards and not lower them.
Keep Night Jump requirements, keep water training requirements and ADD serious Canopy Control requirements.
Matt
Absofuckinglutely!
I doesn't have to be either / or...additional requirements as well as better training regarding he current ones could only have a positive effect in the long run.
Making the 'red herring' rating easier to get is just ludicrous.
If we want people to be safer, more knowledgeable & well rounded in the sport...show them it's not an elective. One SHOULD have to study & practice skills they may not 'normally' use in order to hold an advanced rating.
Anybody can be a Boy Scout and sing songs around the campfire, but reaching the advanced Eagle title takes commitment, dedication and initiative.
Shouldn't holding the top license in Skydiving require much more than just having jump numbers and 'basic' skills?
(and let's be honest, even night jumping is a pretty 'basic' skill, whether you think you will ever need it or not))
Heck, I even think some basic medical & CPR training should be included...stuff like clear the airway, pressure on the gusher and don't drag him to the hangar face down, by his feet...
Not EVERYBODY that wants to be a TM, AFFI, PRO etc. gets to be one, those ratings are respected because they are sought after & earned, showing both skill & knowledge...not just awarded.
If ya wanna be a top dog you better know what you're barking about...
I know a "few" D's that are idiots in the air. So you are telling me that a C that may not be comfortable with their night vision but is a damn good skydiver should not be an AFF etc. or get a D bc they are being safe about not making a night jump? Then the idiot that does not have near the skills but threw himself out two times at night should get the D and be an instructor. Suppose this same D broke his leg on the second night jump bc of piss poor judgement.... who cares right... he jumped at night twice and didn't die so he "earned" it.......
If you never jump at night or plan on doing it then the requirement is dumb. I am all for adding qualifications to make the license process better but the night jump requirement should not be one of them. JMHO
Rob
It is about the experience and confidence one gains from actually doing the jumps instead of hearing a bonfire story or reading about it. It is also only for the D license, you can be an AFF-I with a C and 6 hours of freefall.
What happens when you get in your DZ's 182 and Cinci or Dayton put you on hold for a jumbo and now its "night"? Ride down because you have no idea what to expect in this now uncontrolled scenario or exit with a little confidence since you have experience from two night jumps in a "controlled" environment?
The D is the top tier license and, is too easy as it is, now we take away night jumps? The only argument against night jumps I am hearing is the "every one gets a trophy" one.
If some one NEVER plans on making night jumps (and then will also probably stop getting on the sunset load) they need not worry about the D license, a C has them covered, hell an A does.
Matt
First.... why is the plane relevant here? Second.... there is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset. Third... below you think a D should be required for an I.... that makes no sense. Read my last post again. The D in that scenario is not the guy I want teaching me. I have jumped at night ... it's cool but not for everyone. Making that a must could keep a great skydiver down especially if you make a D mandatory for an I. I'm sorry but none of the arguments make sense. You are saying the trophy argument is being used I hear "that's how we have done it so it should stay. Again, many things should be changed to better the qualifications but the night jump qualifications make no sense. "experience" is very important but I do not need to make a base jump or an exit from 1k to prepare me in the event that I have to get out then. That seems to be more relevant bc that scenario is not elective. Again.... no way would a person find themselves in a situation that they have to jump an hour after sunset. It cannot happen and if it did then the jumper should have the sense to not jump.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
...there is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset.
Quote
The hour after sunset is the requirement for a defined intentional night jump regarding the license.
No one said getting out because of a delayed exit would be an 'hour after sunset' qualification jump, it's an example of a reason to have experience landing in the dark.
Don't read something into it that's not there.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Let's make all our licenses just based on jump numbers, that way anyone can get one. They're mostly pointless now anyway, we just keep stripping away anything that people don't like and wonder why there are AFF/Is who tie shit to student's rigs, why we have people who can't spot (I'm one of them, I spot with a GPS telling me it's ok), why we have skydivers of all levels flying themselves into the ground at a rate that would suggest it's more than just human error factor.
Our canopies are faster, our free fall is faster, our planes are bigger, everything has taken a step forward and meanwhile our training keeps going backwards. People don't respect their elders in this sport because they haven't earned what the experienced jumpers had to, they were given it.
It's really pathetic that so much angst goes into something like night jumps in the D. You're going for a damn D license, if you can't see at night get a waiver, if you can, get some balls.
Our canopies are faster, our free fall is faster, our planes are bigger, everything has taken a step forward and meanwhile our training keeps going backwards. People don't respect their elders in this sport because they haven't earned what the experienced jumpers had to, they were given it.
It's really pathetic that so much angst goes into something like night jumps in the D. You're going for a damn D license, if you can't see at night get a waiver, if you can, get some balls.
Quote...there is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset.
Quote
The hour after sunset is the requirement for a defined intentional night jump regarding the license.
No one said getting out because of a delayed exit would be an 'hour after sunset' qualification jump, it's an example of a reason to have experience landing in the dark.
Don't read something into it that's not there.
Ok I will phrase it a different way.... there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions. So if that is the argument then why not make the qualification jumps right after sunset. Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable. Just like if they are not comfortable doing a jump an hour after sunset they shouldn't. I want more qualified I's and jumpers as well but I'm sorry the night jump requirement makes no sense at all. I have yet to read an argument for it that holds water. I don't want to just get rid of requirements. I think we should add some if they make sense. as for me... i will get my D under these rules ... no biggie for me but others are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled or experienced they are.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
kallend 2,098
QuoteQuote
Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work.
Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether....
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteI have been following along, i addressed his specific concerns.
The nights jumps are in the wrong spot, they should be with the water training for a B license.
Plus the D should be required for the "I" rating, regardless of type (Manufacturers drove the D for Tandems, USPA conceded), Pre-qualed by the Coach having a C.
Matt
FWIW, I agree with all that, Matt.
You don't have a chance at quality if standards are so low as to invite mediocrity.
From my understanding, C-license was set to be the requirement for AFFI partly because of the shortage of AFFIs at the time. I don't think that shortage exists now so raising the bar to D would be a good thing.
Oooooo...along with your mention of the B-license....how about this:
Top o' the head brain-flash: Since some equate sunset to night, restrict Pre-B from "sunset" loads. Maybe it would add incentive to get the water and the night jump training earlier in the progression?
I wouldn't argue against having to do intentional water jumps like back in the day. I'd take the training from Airtwardo....if he was up to it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quote...there is no way anyone would be on hold for that long and bam it's an hour after sunset.
Quote
The hour after sunset is the requirement for a defined intentional night jump regarding the license.
No one said getting out because of a delayed exit would be an 'hour after sunset' qualification jump, it's an example of a reason to have experience landing in the dark.
True enough. Again, USPA says THAT is the reason for the night jump requirement at D...to protect those who would jump at those twilight times. Never mind the A-, B- and C-license people. It's crazy, I know, but there you have it. Somehow they seem to equate Twilight = Dark.My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteQuote
Bottom line, if you want the award (which is too easy to reach, IMO), then you gotta do the work.
Well, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether.
And if you want an Achievement award, you have to do 2 night jumps.
1000-jump wings? Gotta have the D.
I fail to see the relevancy.
You want a Performance award? USPA mentions no license requirement.
How about an award for those who complete all specialty jumps? Ummmm....one might add the requirement of "successfully".My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions. So if that is the argument then why not make the qualification jumps right after sunset. Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable.
Quote
I can discount all three of your statements by recalling one jump some years back...DC-3 sunset load at Elsonore.
LZ is in a valley, it gets dark there when the sun gets low, the aircraft wasn't used all that often at the time and it was slow to get going and slow to climb.
And if YOU would rather land in a large 50 year old airplane on a dark dirt strip then jump out, well lets just say you are a lot more trusting of factors out of your control that is wise.
Don't say it can't happen because it can and has.
Having the experience of several hundred night jumps under my belt, I had no problem making the skydive. If you have the tool in your box to deal with it then there is no issue.
If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone.
Having actually performed the jumps just may help someone else...Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke?
I really don't see what the horror is in jumping at night. Yes it takes some preparation and some understanding above 'normal' jumps...so does working with students, doing demos, swoopin...on & on.
I guess I'm just from a different time, when understanding the challenges and working to meet them was a good thing.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Quotethere is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions. So if that is the argument then why not make the qualification jumps right after sunset. Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable.
Quote
I can discount all three of your statements by recalling one jump some years back...DC-3 sunset load at Elsonore.
LZ is in a valley, it gets dark there when the sun gets low, the aircraft wasn't used all that often at the time and it was slow to get going and slow to climb.
And if YOU would rather land in a large 50 year old airplane on a dark dirt strip then jump jump out, you are a lot more trusting of factors out of your control that is wise.
Don't say it can't happen because it can and has.
Having the experience of several hundred night jumps under my belt, I had no problem making the skydive. If you have the tool in your box to deal with it then there is no issue.
If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone.
Having actually performed the jumps just may help someone else...
Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke?
That didn't really discount anything I was saying. I seriously doubt it was "night time" conditions. It sounds like there was an error in judgement to begin with and the plane should have never taken off...... chain of events begins. Did the plane land safely? If you are asking if the smart move would be land with the plane if one was not comfortable with the conditions, the answer is YES. Scary maybe but just taking off in say... a twin beech on a grass runway is too.
The conditions you explain means many people did something that they should not have done... correct?Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com
QuoteQuotethere is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions. So if that is the argument then why not make the qualification jumps right after sunset. Also, the jumpers do not have to jump and shouldn't if not comfortable.
Quote
I can discount all three of your statements by recalling one jump some years back...DC-3 sunset load at Elsonore.
LZ is in a valley, it gets dark there when the sun gets low, the aircraft wasn't used all that often at the time and it was slow to get going and slow to climb.
And if YOU would rather land in a large 50 year old airplane on a dark dirt strip then jump jump out, you are a lot more trusting of factors out of your control that is wise.
Don't say it can't happen because it can and has.
Having the experience of several hundred night jumps under my belt, I had no problem making the skydive. If you have the tool in your box to deal with it then there is no issue.
If you can't or won't jump at night for whatever reason then don't, just don't get the D or get the waiver 'almost' a D...but don't try to dumb down the requirement for everyone.
Having actually performed the jumps just may help someone else...
Why 'fix it' if it ain't broke?
That didn't really discount anything I was saying. I seriously doubt it was "night time" conditions. It sounds like there was an error in judgement to begin with and the plane should have never taken off...... chain of events begins. Did the plane land safely? If you are asking if the smart move would be land with the plane if one was not comfortable with the conditions, the answer is YES. Scary maybe but just taking off in say... a twin beech on a grass runway is too.
The conditions you explain means many people did something that they should not have done... correct?
Whatever ya say champ, I guess if YOU would have been there to organize it there wouldn't have been any question...but you weren't & I don't live in your perfect world where everything goes as it should.
In my world half the day is in darkness, having the night jump experience is just one less thing I ever have to worry about when walking up to manifest at the end of he day...just keep your lights handy!
I'll type slower for ya this time...'It can happen and does'
...things don't always go as planned, that's why you have a reserve.
Once again, if you don't wanna do it, then don't...just don't make your insecurity a change of policy for everyone else.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
OK food for thought.
Have you ever wondered why the youngsters don't listen and learn from some of you guys?
Is it possible that one reason is that you are all wrapped up in "this is the way it's always been done and any change is wrong".
You guys make it awfully tough for the rest of us.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
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