DSE 5 #51 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote For example two of the below: * Instructor rating (Coach or higher) * Competition exp. * 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW * 4pt VRW * CRW 4 stack * Wing Suit flock 4 or larger * 50 way or larger RW * PRO rating * Style set in less than 10 seconds At risk of sounding arrogant, I disagree 100%. Here is why: ... . I agree with you. The proposals in this thread sound fine for some kind of "All Around Skydiver Award of Merit", but not for a LICENSE. A license is permission to do something, and the criteria for granting it should reflect that. So you don't feel that: * Two accuracy jumps within 12" of target * 4 or more differing types of aircraft and related exits. * Completed Canopy Proficiency card * 2 Twilight jump; no lighted landing area. are all indicative of specific skills and therefore granting permissions to do specific things? You've had a lot to say about what shouldn't be part of a licensing requirement; specifically what do you feel should be part of any licensing program? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #52 November 29, 2011 QuoteWho cares about D licences? Clearly lots of people.... Such as those that have refused to do the night jumps and bitch about it. QuoteThus the only thing important is canopy proficiency. You only have two canopy related things on your list, PRO rating and CRW. Not everyone wants to swoop, not everyone wants to stomp on a disk. Also you seemed to skip over that I wrote "Just threw those out as examples"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #53 November 29, 2011 Quote>You can be an instructor with just a couple of years in the sport, and that doesn't mean >that you "know the sport" better than someone with thousands of jumps over one or >more decades who has done things other than instructing. Agreed. But an instructor with thousands of jumps over one or more decades who has done a variety of things in the sport knows the sport a lot better than one who has never instructed. Instructing is a social skill, not a unique skydiving skill. Lots of non-instructors launch three-way side-body exits. Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a non-instructor. All it means is that you're trained and practiced at explaining things to others. And that doesn't make you a more expert skydiver than someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #54 November 29, 2011 Thanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days?The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #55 November 29, 2011 I'm curious if anyone has an opinion regarding the written examination and whether it should be expanded to include more. If so, what else should be included? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #56 November 29, 2011 >Instructing is a social skill, not a unique skydiving skill. It is, of course, both. >Lots of non-instructors launch three-way side-body exits. Yep, they do. One of the more fun things to watch is one of those non-instructors assume that their experience makes them good AFF jumpmasters. The videos of them with their first evaluators are often hilarious. >Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Also, I've found that the best way to learn something is to teach it. I guarantee you will learn a lot about emergency procedures, for example, by teaching them every weekend - and then seeing how people screw them up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 November 29, 2011 QuoteBeing an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a non-instructor. I'd sorta disagree. Being an instructor means you have to really think about what you want the student to do and have many different methods to explain that to the student. Somethings I take for granted as a competitor are pretty natural for me after 5k jumps and a bunch of training.... But I learn more when I try to explain something to someone else. QuoteAll it means is that you're trained and practiced at explaining things to others. And that you normally REALLY know the subject matter."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #58 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote For example two of the below: * Instructor rating (Coach or higher) * Competition exp. * 8pt 4way or 4pt 8way RW * 4pt VRW * CRW 4 stack * Wing Suit flock 4 or larger * 50 way or larger RW * PRO rating * Style set in less than 10 seconds At risk of sounding arrogant, I disagree 100%. Here is why: ... . I agree with you. The proposals in this thread sound fine for some kind of "All Around Skydiver Award of Merit", but not for a LICENSE. A license is permission to do something, and the criteria for granting it should reflect that. So you don't feel that: * Two accuracy jumps within 12" of target * 4 or more differing types of aircraft and related exits. * Completed Canopy Proficiency card * 2 Twilight jump; no lighted landing area. are all indicative of specific skills and therefore granting permissions to do specific things? You've had a lot to say about what shouldn't be part of a licensing requirement; specifically what do you feel should be part of any licensing program? These are good questions, which can ONLY be answered by first defining the objectives of the license. Right now the objectives of the "A" seem pretty well defined. The objectives of the "D" license are not well defined at all. What purpose does the "D" serve these days? Requiring one to apply for a gold wings award seems silly, and requiring one to go for some ratings seems rather pointless (just incorporate the criteria into the rating requirements and have them all in one place). When I got my "D" you needed a "D" to compete in certain events at Nationals and go on FAI world records, but not any more.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #59 November 29, 2011 I really don't have much of an interest in a D license or any of the awards. The only awards I have is the CRW 4 stack and the SCR award. None of the other awards mean much to me, even those two aren't that important to me. What I consider to be worth going after is first place at Nationals in VFS Advanced and Open. Now those are hard to get! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #60 November 29, 2011 QuoteI really don't have much of an interest in a D license or any of the awards. The only awards I have is the CRW 4 stack and the SCR award. None of the other awards mean much to me, even those two aren't that important to me. What I consider to be worth going after is first place at Nationals in VFS Advanced and Open. Now those are hard to get! Very true. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. What real purpose do people think the "D" serves these days? Has it just degenerated into a merit badge?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #61 November 29, 2011 >Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #62 November 29, 2011 Quote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #63 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #64 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #65 November 29, 2011 QuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #66 November 29, 2011 Quote (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and Assuming the above is indeed the key phrase in the FAA rigs, this is the big stumbling block to any new D license that would would be much harder to achieve. If you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Great job security for existing ones though. If the USPA's D changes, yet it takes the FAA 10 more years to change their language, the skydiving industry would have to totally change. So the only way the D would ever become much harder to get would be if someone knew how to get the FAA to quickly and painlessly change their regs. That doesn't seem to be very common. Thus if anyone wants "a new tough D license", it will likely have to be an E license instead. All that brings us to a related point: We also have the issue that the USPA apparently doesn't call the D an Expert or Master license any more, unlike say from the 1960's to 1990's(?). We'd have to look at the USPA and FAA fine print to see what the FAA statement really means. Otherwise, technically nobody in the US can do tandems according to the FAA, except perhaps all those who got their D license more than a decade or something back.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #67 November 29, 2011 QuoteIf you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Nonsense.... It just means that you might have do do a few more things before strapping another person onto you. That is not asking a lot and maybe will make better and safer instructors."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #68 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps. Does NOT meet the definition of a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #69 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like night, wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. -I didn't earn those licenses just to show I could do it, but to make my participation safer, to be more knowledgeable and to allow me to do more things in the sport than the basic licenses. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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kallend 2,027 #62 November 29, 2011 Quote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #63 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #64 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #65 November 29, 2011 QuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #66 November 29, 2011 Quote (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and Assuming the above is indeed the key phrase in the FAA rigs, this is the big stumbling block to any new D license that would would be much harder to achieve. If you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Great job security for existing ones though. If the USPA's D changes, yet it takes the FAA 10 more years to change their language, the skydiving industry would have to totally change. So the only way the D would ever become much harder to get would be if someone knew how to get the FAA to quickly and painlessly change their regs. That doesn't seem to be very common. Thus if anyone wants "a new tough D license", it will likely have to be an E license instead. All that brings us to a related point: We also have the issue that the USPA apparently doesn't call the D an Expert or Master license any more, unlike say from the 1960's to 1990's(?). We'd have to look at the USPA and FAA fine print to see what the FAA statement really means. Otherwise, technically nobody in the US can do tandems according to the FAA, except perhaps all those who got their D license more than a decade or something back.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #67 November 29, 2011 QuoteIf you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Nonsense.... It just means that you might have do do a few more things before strapping another person onto you. That is not asking a lot and maybe will make better and safer instructors."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #68 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps. Does NOT meet the definition of a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #69 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like night, wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. -I didn't earn those licenses just to show I could do it, but to make my participation safer, to be more knowledgeable and to allow me to do more things in the sport than the basic licenses. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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airtwardo 7 #63 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #64 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #65 November 29, 2011 QuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #66 November 29, 2011 Quote (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and Assuming the above is indeed the key phrase in the FAA rigs, this is the big stumbling block to any new D license that would would be much harder to achieve. If you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Great job security for existing ones though. If the USPA's D changes, yet it takes the FAA 10 more years to change their language, the skydiving industry would have to totally change. So the only way the D would ever become much harder to get would be if someone knew how to get the FAA to quickly and painlessly change their regs. That doesn't seem to be very common. Thus if anyone wants "a new tough D license", it will likely have to be an E license instead. All that brings us to a related point: We also have the issue that the USPA apparently doesn't call the D an Expert or Master license any more, unlike say from the 1960's to 1990's(?). We'd have to look at the USPA and FAA fine print to see what the FAA statement really means. Otherwise, technically nobody in the US can do tandems according to the FAA, except perhaps all those who got their D license more than a decade or something back.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #67 November 29, 2011 QuoteIf you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Nonsense.... It just means that you might have do do a few more things before strapping another person onto you. That is not asking a lot and maybe will make better and safer instructors."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #68 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps. Does NOT meet the definition of a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #69 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like night, wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. -I didn't earn those licenses just to show I could do it, but to make my participation safer, to be more knowledgeable and to allow me to do more things in the sport than the basic licenses. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kallend 2,027 #64 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #65 November 29, 2011 QuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 279 #66 November 29, 2011 Quote (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and Assuming the above is indeed the key phrase in the FAA rigs, this is the big stumbling block to any new D license that would would be much harder to achieve. If you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Great job security for existing ones though. If the USPA's D changes, yet it takes the FAA 10 more years to change their language, the skydiving industry would have to totally change. So the only way the D would ever become much harder to get would be if someone knew how to get the FAA to quickly and painlessly change their regs. That doesn't seem to be very common. Thus if anyone wants "a new tough D license", it will likely have to be an E license instead. All that brings us to a related point: We also have the issue that the USPA apparently doesn't call the D an Expert or Master license any more, unlike say from the 1960's to 1990's(?). We'd have to look at the USPA and FAA fine print to see what the FAA statement really means. Otherwise, technically nobody in the US can do tandems according to the FAA, except perhaps all those who got their D license more than a decade or something back.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #67 November 29, 2011 QuoteIf you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Nonsense.... It just means that you might have do do a few more things before strapping another person onto you. That is not asking a lot and maybe will make better and safer instructors."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #68 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps. Does NOT meet the definition of a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #69 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like night, wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. -I didn't earn those licenses just to show I could do it, but to make my participation safer, to be more knowledgeable and to allow me to do more things in the sport than the basic licenses. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Ron 10 #65 November 29, 2011 QuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #66 November 29, 2011 Quote (iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and Assuming the above is indeed the key phrase in the FAA rigs, this is the big stumbling block to any new D license that would would be much harder to achieve. If you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Great job security for existing ones though. If the USPA's D changes, yet it takes the FAA 10 more years to change their language, the skydiving industry would have to totally change. So the only way the D would ever become much harder to get would be if someone knew how to get the FAA to quickly and painlessly change their regs. That doesn't seem to be very common. Thus if anyone wants "a new tough D license", it will likely have to be an E license instead. All that brings us to a related point: We also have the issue that the USPA apparently doesn't call the D an Expert or Master license any more, unlike say from the 1960's to 1990's(?). We'd have to look at the USPA and FAA fine print to see what the FAA statement really means. Otherwise, technically nobody in the US can do tandems according to the FAA, except perhaps all those who got their D license more than a decade or something back.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 November 29, 2011 QuoteIf you make the "D" a truly exceptional achievement -- indicating both a wide and deep range of skydiving skills and safety knowledge -- you've now shut the tandem industry and DZ's down from hiring anything but a few new tandem instructors. Nonsense.... It just means that you might have do do a few more things before strapping another person onto you. That is not asking a lot and maybe will make better and safer instructors."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #68 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteOK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? A license that shows that ALL of the requirements of ALL the lower licenses have been met including the completed night jumps. Does NOT meet the definition of a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #69 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like night, wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. -I didn't earn those licenses just to show I could do it, but to make my participation safer, to be more knowledgeable and to allow me to do more things in the sport than the basic licenses. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Ron 10 #70 November 29, 2011 Quote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #71 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. 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kallend 2,027 #72 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuote Does NOT meet the definition of a license. Yes, it does.... It means that a person with a "D" LICENSE is supposed to be self sufficient and capable to handle themselves without any supervision. So, it takes a person from "Advanced Student" to "Experienced Skydiver" You of course do not agree.... But then again, I am not surprised after you skipped out on the discussion between night flying and night jumps I brought up. Still doesn't meet the definition of "license". The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license is not a demonstration of arbitrary skills for no purpose other than to demonstrate those skills. The purpose of a license is to give permission to do something. Without having this clear purpose in mind, it isn't a license.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #73 November 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Being an instructor does not mean that you know more about skydiving than a >non-instructor. It does, however, mean you know how to teach skydiving, how to convey critical information, and how to make good decisions on what people are capable of. All of which are important skills for people who assume leadership roles at their DZs. Quote I think I'm missing something here...isn't that what an 'Instructor Rating' is for? Are you saying one should pursue a rating to teach in order to qualify as a license holder? That seems a bit backwards to me. We all know people that are very competent Skydivers but would make horrible instructors be it due to abrasive personalities, lack of consistent discipline or even time constraints. I believe being an Instructor is a calling that requires dedication and personality/communication qualities in an area not necessarily pertinent to the performance of Skydiving skills. I know several extremely skilled jumpers that couldn't 'instruct' you on how to dial a telephone without making it seem necessary to have a goat under your arm and a paint brush sticking out of your ear. I also do not think it should be contingent that 'all' D license holders be concerned with leadership roles at the drop-zone...unless I'm not understanding what you mean by leadership 'role'. OK, what do you think the purpose of a "D" license is? To 'me' anyway, it's a means with which to show that the holder has satisfactorily performed the requirements set forth by the governing organization verifying that the license holder has at least a minimum competency level above those required for the lesser licenses. That sounds more like a merit award than a LICENSE. I guess it depends on your definition, your expectations, intentions and your motivation for earning it...some people 'just' see a stick, and some people see a tool. I tend to view it as a license to participate in 'advanced' areas of the sport with which I've not only received training in, but have shown competent practical application...just like wreck or rescue diving with SCUBA. With a merit badge you make the bird-house and sew on the patch, with a license you get to use the tools for working on dog-houses. The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (Indian English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. So what permissions should be granted by a "D" license? Well...in my case it's permission to hold a PRO Rating, and be a TM. I had fulfilled all the requirements for a D years prior to applying for one but found it necessary have one to attend TI training and to hold that license... as well as a PRO Rating, which I need to show a competency level for the FAA, demonstration jump organizers and insurance companies. When I visit drop-zones both in the U.S. and abroad I seem to only need to show a current D license to confirm that I have achieved an understood and respected level of competency and experience. As I said, I was qualified for the license well prior to having it...having it in hand shows those that don't know me personally, that I have met the standard set fourth by the USPA. It gives me 'permission' to Skydive when, where, how and with whom I want ...pretty much anywhere in the world I've been, so far. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. 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beowulf 1 #74 November 29, 2011 I have a C license. Not having the D license would only stop me from being a Tandem Instructor or getting any of the awards. That isn't much of incentive to go through the trouble to get a D license. Saying it changes me from an "Advanced Student" to an "Experienced Skydiver" doesn't mean anything to me either. It's just a label. I have done night jumps. I have all the qualifications for a D license I just haven't done the paper work. I just don't see any need for it. Just to add to this, for the longest time I only had an A license. I could do everything I wanted to with an A license. I didn't get my B and C license till I had over 900 jumps. I only got those because I wanted to compete at Nationals and I got in trouble for jumping a camera with out a C license. I had been jumping with a camera since jump number 430! No one thought to ask what license I had because I had double the recommended number of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #75 November 29, 2011 QuoteThanks to the guys that cleared up my facts about where the D requirement for TI comes from. Or at least it’s clear that it wasn’t USPA. But can anyone explain why this requirement is in place? What is it about a D that qualifies someone more to be a TI than having a C? Why is TI the only instructor rating that requires a D? Is this a holdover from the D = 200 jumps days? I'm guessing (just guessing) it might be (at least in part) an attorney-advised policy. That way when a mfgr gets sued after an accident, it can't be accused of not requiring that TIs using its equipment have attained the highest-possible certification of expertise. So, for example, if the USPA ever creates an E license, I can see the mfgrs' respective attorneys advising them to require all their TIs to have E licenses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
