jacketsdb23 49 #2 November 16, 2011 There are two types of canopies with the most fatalities......those flown by inexperienced canopy pilots.....and those flown by the most experienced canopy pilots, who in some cases, think their skill outweighs the laws of physics. Sorry - but i've seen so much crap by our "leaders" in the past month that it makes my head spin. No wonder we have canopy problems in our sport...our leaders make terrible examples.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #3 November 16, 2011 By your logic, the most fatal canopy is a Manta 290 or ... a Competition Velocity less than 100 square feet. Mantas certainly contribute the bulk of sprained ankles, tree landings, etc. ... but Velocities are more likely to kill! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #4 November 16, 2011 There are a lot of inexperienced canopy pilots that probably should be on a Manta 290. But instead, they are jumping crossfires, katanas, and velo's. And by all accounts, we let them. By "we" I mean the skydiving community. Its sad really.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 475 #5 November 16, 2011 T-10 at a guess? But then you probably don't mean to includes rounds. You are getting into statistics with a question like this. It is a good question though. A canopy that is widely adopted (like the Sabre 2) may have more fatalities than say a Velo. But as a proportion of deaths per canopy sold, I would guess the cross-braced canopies.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #6 November 16, 2011 Novayou can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #7 November 16, 2011 QuoteT-10 at a guess? Reported Injuries? Maybe... fatalities? I HIGHLY doubt that a T-10 has a higher fatality rate than Velo's."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #8 November 16, 2011 >Nova I can think of 3 fatalities on the Nova. There have been far more than that on Velocities. (Not sure if the Velo is the highest though) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #9 November 16, 2011 From the data I have, Velocity seems to be the clear winner. But there are 2/3 of the incidents where I don't have canopy type and this is only for the last seven or so years and some of it is just what people posted in the forums, so maybe not reliable, etc. etc. I filtered out any fatality that wasn't related to a malfunction/entanglement, collision/wrap, or landing problem. Top 5 w/ number of fatalities per: Velocity 24 Stiletto 12 Sabre2 11 Katana 7 Spectre 7 See PDF for full list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #10 November 16, 2011 I would have to say the stiletto since it's been around a LOT longer than the velocity. Your data is missing a good 10+ years.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 November 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteT-10 at a guess? Reported Injuries? Maybe... fatalities? I HIGHLY doubt that a T-10 has a higher fatality rate than Velo's. .......................................................................... It all depends upon how you chose to crunch the statistics. Given the millions of jumps with T-10s, it is probable that more people have died under T-10s than any other canopy. If you start to narrow your statistical focus to number of fatalities per thousand jumps ... Velocity or Stiletto will probably lead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #12 November 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteT-10 at a guess? Reported Injuries? Maybe... fatalities? I HIGHLY doubt that a T-10 has a higher fatality rate than Velo's. All depends how you count them. Rate if different than a straight count. Also, there were probably quite a few no-pull or low pull fatalaties under T-10s. Not sure that is relevant to the question but those could be counted depending on how the question is framed."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 475 #13 November 16, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteT-10 at a guess? Reported Injuries? Maybe... fatalities? I HIGHLY doubt that a T-10 has a higher fatality rate than Velo's. .......................................................................... It all depends upon how you chose to crunch the statistics. Given the millions of jumps with T-10s, it is probable that more people have died under T-10s than any other canopy. If you start to narrow your statistical focus to number of fatalities per thousand jumps ... Velocity or Stiletto will probably lead. That's what I was getting at. Especially when a large number of T-10 jumps are low altitude military jumps. It does look like Stileto may be it.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #14 November 16, 2011 The original Raven reserve wins the gong for me. I personally now/knew 4 people it bounced with its snivel to the ground openings. That canopy was deadly crap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #15 November 17, 2011 Quote There are two types of canopies with the most fatalities......those flown by inexperienced canopy pilots.....and those flown by the most experienced canopy pilots, who in some cases, think their skill outweighs the laws of physics. There are more than just the two categories that you listed but the breakdown should probably go something like this: 1.Fatality by flawed design/manufacture (canopy has issues maintaining lift after opening) 2.Fatality as a result of hard openings (canopy usually opens and flys correctly 90% of the time) 3.Fatality under a HP canopy 4.Fatality under a Student canopy #1 - I would have to research With #2, it probably is a toss up between the Sabre II or the Spectra, with the Triathlon right behind them. #3 is without doubt the Velo. That is just by the number of jumps on them vs the other HP canopies and also the number of Velos produced. #4- Again research would be needed here. The two most used student canopies in this area are the Manta and the Student Navigator. So again, just by the shear number of jumps on them, one of them is sure to have the most fatalities. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 475 #16 November 17, 2011 QuoteWith #2, it probably is a toss up between the Sabre II or the Spectra, with the Triathlon right behind them. It is an interesting list. I thought the Sabre 2 was less prone to very hard openings than the Sabre 1? Is it simply that more Sabre 2's have been sold that pushes it higher in your list?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #17 November 17, 2011 Quote It is an interesting list. I thought the Sabre 2 was less prone to very hard openings than the Sabre 1? Is it simply that more Sabre 2's have been sold that pushes it higher in your list? I would say that there are as many, if not more Crossfires and Safires out in the field now, so that would not be a true conclusion IMHO. The problem with the Sabre II and Spectra is three fold. 1. Spectra Lines 2. USUALLY a good opening canopy, but will bite you on occasion, And when it does, it usually hurts or worse... 3. The reinforcing tape in the leading edge of the nose is overkill. So when a hard opening does occur, there is little to no give in it. Something has to give during a hard opening, I had much rather it be the canopy rather than my aorta or neck.... As far as the numbers I can think of at least three on a Sabre II and three(?) on a Spectre. I think you can find all of them in the Incidents forum if you look for them. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #18 November 17, 2011 Well, Bill I thought my answer was just as stupid as T-10. Knowing full well there are more modern canopies with much higher death rates....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 475 #19 November 17, 2011 Quote Well, Bill I thought my answer was just as stupid as T-10. Knowing full well there are more modern canopies with much higher death rates.... I think some people are using rate and others total per type. Giving us apples and oranges to compare. I think that rate is probably more interesting. Some withdrawn canopies may a very high rate but total deaths very low. I think Marks breakdown was good in that it shows the different categories. It's pointless having a nice docile canopy that lands you safely IF it doesn't kill you on openingExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,314 #20 November 17, 2011 QuoteFrom the data I have, Velocity seems to be the clear winner. But there are 2/3 of the incidents where I don't have canopy type and this is only for the last seven or so years and some of it is just what people posted in the forums, so maybe not reliable, etc. etc. I filtered out any fatality that wasn't related to a malfunction/entanglement, collision/wrap, or landing problem. Top 5 w/ number of fatalities per: Velocity 24 Stiletto 12 Sabre2 11 Katana 7 Spectre 7 See PDF for full list. Why do you have Velocity twice? (Velocity?)Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #21 November 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteFrom the data I have, Velocity seems to be the clear winner. But there are 2/3 of the incidents where I don't have canopy type and this is only for the last seven or so years and some of it is just what people posted in the forums, so maybe not reliable, etc. etc. I filtered out any fatality that wasn't related to a malfunction/entanglement, collision/wrap, or landing problem. Top 5 w/ number of fatalities per: Velocity 24 Stiletto 12 Sabre2 11 Katana 7 Spectre 7 See PDF for full list. Why do you have Velocity twice? (Velocity?) I did this using a pivot table from a spreadsheet and the "Velocity?" one is the most recent incident where someone thinks he was on a Velocity, but it hasn't been confirmed. So, since I had the question mark in there it treated them as separate entries and I didn't manually fix it before creating the PDF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #22 November 17, 2011 Nice job on putting the stats together, even if we argue about what definition of "most fatalities" to use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muffie 0 #23 November 17, 2011 Thanks! It's always fun to see the different perspectives/interps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuai43 7 #24 November 19, 2011 QuoteFrom the data I have, Velocity seems to be the clear winner. But there are 2/3 of the incidents where I don't have canopy type and this is only for the last seven or so years and some of it is just what people posted in the forums, so maybe not reliable, etc. etc. I filtered out any fatality that wasn't related to a malfunction/entanglement, collision/wrap, or landing problem. Top 5 w/ number of fatalities per: Velocity 24 Stiletto 12 Sabre2 11 Katana 7 Spectre 7 See PDF for full list. C'mon Stiletto! Get up there - you can do it!!Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #25 November 19, 2011 ones that don't open proper. Actually, you'll probably find the the highest number of fatalities for a canopy is 1 .... not many people gonna jump her after that ..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
