Wind limits for students

[riggerrob 643]

This thread is an off-shoot from: "Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people."

All the numbers in the BSRs make for amusing reading, but I quit dropping (S/L, IAD and PFF) students "when student canopies start backing up."

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

All the numbers in the BSRs make for amusing reading,

Please explain. How are they amusing? Do you think they are so out of whack that it should be in a comic strip?

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

I quit dropping (S/L, IAD and PFF) students "when student canopies start backing up."

-How do you know that until after you've dropped them, though?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[riddler 0]

Good point. I've seen lightweight people put under the "standard" 290 that are going backwards in a lot less than 14 MPH winds. Current skydiving instruction has the advantage of giving individual, custom training to each individual, based on their needs, experience and abilities. I hate seeing the mentality of following numbers and rules with no exception - everyone should be put under a 290, 14 MPH means we're good to go, etc. Applying good judgement to standard rules and numbers can definitely make the experience safer for a student.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Witelli 0]

Funny, I just posted in the "Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people." thread saying the same thing. Your wingloading should at least allow you to penetrate the 14mph wind. If it's a rule for students to be in under 14mph winds, then shouldn't it be a rule that they are wingloaded to at least penetrate that wind? I don't have the skydiving experience to make this assumption, I'm just trying to think logically. So what do you think?

[phoenixlpr 0]

He is instructor, he should have some idea of student wind limits.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Funny, I just posted in the "Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people." thread saying the same thing. Your wingloading should at least allow you to penetrate the 14mph wind. If it's a rule for students to be in under 14mph winds, then shouldn't it be a rule that they are wingloaded to at least penetrate that wind? I don't have the skydiving experience to make this assumption, I'm just trying to think logically. So what do you think?

Your post is correct, in essence. The 14mph is just that - a MAX value. If the student equipment that a DZ uses results in students backing up at, say, 12mph, then a max wind limit for studentst AT THAT DZ would probably be around (at a guess) 10mph...perhaps a bit less.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[phoenixlpr 0]

AFAK the student wind limit is 8m/s max in 10 minutes in Finland.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

in France it is 7m/s...

-------------------------------------------------

No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

While max winds for students are 14mph in the USA, that does not mean that I am going to drop every student up to that limit. If it's bumpy at all, or if I just don't feel like a very-light or timid student is going to be able to handle it, they are staying on the ground.

Chuck
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, BMCI

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

While max winds for students are 14mph in the USA, that does not mean that I am going to drop every student up to that limit. If it's bumpy at all, or if I just don't feel like a very-light or timid student is going to be able to handle it, they are staying on the ground

Commendable.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Funny, I just posted in the "Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people." thread saying the same thing. Your wingloading should at least allow you to penetrate the 14mph wind. If it's a rule for students to be in under 14mph winds, then shouldn't it be a rule that they are wingloaded to at least penetrate that wind? I don't have the skydiving experience to make this assumption, I'm just trying to think logically. So what do you think?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Despite what I said in my 1983 article, setting wing-loading limits is at best a crude art.
There are a dozen other variables.
Turbulence, clumbsy students, etc. can throw all those nice, neat numbers out the window.

[freeflygirlz 0]

In Austria the wind limit is 6m/s for the first 8 jumps, which is about 14mph. Students with more than 8 jumps are allowed to jump until 8m/s (about 17mph)
To me 14mph sounds like a reasonable limit. Of course it depends on the size of the landing area and local conditions.
gusty winds or rather unskilled students are a reason to keep a student on the ground, although the winds are within the limits.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

He is instructor, he should have some idea of student wind limits.

-Not saying he doesn't, I'm just saying that if you notice students backing up...well, they're already in the air if you can watch them back up.

Anyhoo, moving on...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

-Not saying he doesn't, I'm just saying that if you notice students backing up...well, they're already in the air if you can watch them back up.

He has told before. And before is not necerary means that students are midair.

[kelpdiver 2]

6m/s=13.4 mph
7m/s=15.7
8m/s=17.9

[mjosparky 4]

Rob,

You are sneaking up on something, what is it?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Despite what I said in my 1983 article, setting wing-loading limits is at best a crude art.
There are a dozen other variables.
Turbulence, clumbsy students, etc. can throw all those nice, neat numbers out the window.

Well said! If someone was writing dissertations on skydiving when I was still in high school I usually at least listen. Rob not only opens the box of ambiguity where wing loading is concerned but there are so many factors to consider outside of wing loading he mentions such as wind conditions (there are different kinds of winds), the student performance (not all student perform the same or are at the same level, especially in an 18 jump course) the ETC. means that Murphy is lurking around the corner. Good judgment on the instructor’s part is paramount; asking the advice of other instructors is a regular practice at the DZ I work at. It is best to hang your ego at the hanger door for the better of the student…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Mike111 0]

the wind at the Dz was terrible, got no jumps in this weekend, but am glad such limits exist.

Although it would have been good to have jumped, I would have lacked both experience and control in order to get down safely, and would have messed up without a clue.

Such limits are useful IMHO and keep us bumbling students safer than we would be if we jumped in them
can be frustrating though if you wanan jump!

lol

Mike

[shunkka 0]

any country where they put the limit after wingloding?

-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

[riggerrob 643]

Most national skydiving organizations publish wind limits.
Few national skydiving organizations publish wing-loading limits.