Do you swoop (or ever plan to)?

[PiLFy 3]

OK. So, flying @faster-than-full-flight for a given canopy might make these more likely to happen?

[jacketsdb23 49]

You are right.

My whuffo comment wasn't directed at you. Its some other threads that have people treating swooping like a red headed step child.

Unfortunately, you would have the same problems with other disciplines in skydiving if it received the same lack of attention to detail that "swooping" does. You can't get in a wind tunnel on your canopy.

That being said, swooping and canopy piloting seem to be different. I don't see the same number of injuries/deaths in competition as I do in General Swooping. The two competition deaths that I'm aware of had nothing to do with the "act of swooping". One was turbulence that collapsed a canopy and the other was a double mal. Competition pilots appear to put the dedicated time and energy into their discipline that most do not. I'm trying to follow in that path of dedicated time and energy into canopy piloting.

Swooping and canopy piloting may be semantics, but I believe its a mindset. One is more beneficial to the long term than the other.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[pchapman 279]

The issue of whether to accelerate before landing is a big messy one. Although this gets away from the original thread topic, I want to at least partially defend the idea to PiLFy.

There is something to be said for it. Put on a little G, tension the lines, more angle of attack (still sufficiently far from the upper limit -- stalling -- but further from the lower limit -- nose folding under). But it doesn't mean suddenly cranking on one front riser, because that does suddenly bring that side of the wing to a lower angle of attack and closer to folding under. Harness turning, if possible, can provide a safer entry. A little extra speed also adds time and energy to the flare, which can be helpful if you are in turbulence and hit a downdraft.

I hate to appeal to Brian Germain, because he isn't god and isn't perfect, but it carries some weight when he has written nice things about adding a little speed and G on approach.

But if something does go wrong, the tradeoff is that the damage will be greater if one is flying faster and with more bank angle.

[d123 3]

I'm currently working on my 90's. Double fronts work like charm. I've never wanted to swoop. I've started with the pattern. Few times I was too high in the 2nd point of the pattern and I've cranked a 90 on front. My eyes begin to see the dive and the recovery part and I've begin to do it for the final and always to high. It was freaking awesome because my accuracy improved. I'm talking about you grab a front and you crank a 90. Then one time when I was too high, instead of releasing the front riser I've finish in double fronts and hold it to 1 sec before flare and release it slowly and got a nice surf. That's when I've started the double fronts. Now I'm working on half brakes to double to carve 90 without finishing on double fronts (because we want to practice perfection) and I'm still 10 feet to high last time. Meanwhile I'm also working on downsizing to increase my recovery arc and today I've done a crosswind on a one size smaller (170) rent gear. I'm looking forward for a 150 but before that I want to do the check list for 170.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[PiLFy 3]

My ignorance was far less confusing . Thank You for trying to explain it to me. Like I said. It remains above my abilities @the moment. It looks like I'll be asking many more questions before the time comes.

[billvon 3,006]

>OK. So, flying @faster-than-full-flight for a given canopy might make these more likely to happen?

Turning (via front riser, rear riser or toggle) definitely makes both more likely to occur. Being above or below trim speed (i.e. above or below full flight speed) will make one or the other more likely.

[PiLFy 3]

"Its some other threads that have people treating swooping like a red headed step child."

I don't view it as such. I think swooping is pretty kick-ass. It's just not for me. I appreciate the additional skills it takes to do it right. I'm glad you're taking the methodical approach. The thing is. One of the recent swooping deaths that comes to mind (don't remember his name) was someone w/just such an approach. He was considered to be very methodical, systematic, & safe. He had >10K jumps. He had one off moment or surprise. Now, he's gone.

The majority of the population thinks we're all nuts for doing this. I'm not the type to say that my level of risk is acceptable, but yours isn't. I've no right to. The OP asked a question. I answered it for myself only. I wish you the best of luck in chasing whatever you're passionate about.

[PiLFy 3]

"Being above or below trim speed (i.e. above or below full flight speed) will make one or the other more likely."

Well that sucks... Something else I thought I knew but didn't. There you go, again. Teaching us Newbs something useful. Thanks Bill.

[Southern_Man 0]

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No guarantees that will end successfully either.

Swooping is not a death wish. Just like skydiving itself, its risk reward. For every person you name that died swooping, we can name two or three that died not swooping. Some people on here are starting to sound like my whuffo friends when they discuss swooping. I would think skydivers more than most would "get it".

I think I get it, but I just don't think it is for me. I'm hesitant to say never but I just don't like the thin margin of error that swooping gives you and I've known of too many people I consider good, experienced canopy pilots who have gotten hurt. I'm fine w/ other people doing it. When I get more experienced I am anxious to try some CReW and I know some people say that is crazy as well. We each get to decide our own risk tolerance. I think Swooping is out for me.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Rigless 0]

To each their own..

Don't bash swoopers for swooping and don't bash non swoopers for non swooping

"All limits are self imposed." Icarus

[jrjny 0]

let's get this to 200 votes guys I need some central limit theorem to kick in and analyze this ;-)

[bluetwo 0]

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Don't bash swoopers for swooping and don't bash non swoopers for non swooping

Perfecta!! You really don't have to hate one type to love the other. That's just so hard for some people though...

_______________________________________

[hokierower 0]

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Do you accelerate to 70mph before speed bumps to "cut through them?" Do pilots accelerate to Vne to "cut through" turbulence?

Uh, yea! I love to launch my civic off speed bumps. It's da coolest!

In all seriousness, yes, I do plan on swooping. Probably starting with a Xfire2 149 at 500+ jumps and slowly working my way down from there.

It's a long ways off though (2 years at my current rate).

[AggieDave 6]

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Probably starting with a Xfire2 149 at 500+ jumps and slowly working my way down from there.

You start "swooping" now. To be a consistent and safe swooper it is all built upon the foundation of basic canopy flight. A solid pattern with accuracy. Not just accuracy to land in the peas most of the time, but accuracy with the pattern. Since to swoop well you must position yourself over a point on the ground at a certain altitude. That point on the ground moves around with conditions and that certain altitude changes a little bit due to environmental factors.

Learning how to manipulate your canopy in slow flight is also key. As is learning about stall characteristics. The recovery arc effects you more than just how much altitude it takes your canopy to come out of a dive. Understanding how it effects your canopy from a simple toggle turn or coming out of brakes makes a big difference.

Pulling on a front riser is Step 2 of the progression. Step 1 is becoming a very skilled and experienced canopy pilot with whatever canopy you currently have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hokierower 0]

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Probably starting with a Xfire2 149 at 500+ jumps and slowly working my way down from there.

You start "swooping" now. To be a consistent and safe swooper it is all built upon the foundation of basic canopy flight. A solid pattern with accuracy. Not just accuracy to land in the peas most of the time, but accuracy with the pattern. Since to swoop well you must position yourself over a point on the ground at a certain altitude. That point on the ground moves around with conditions and that certain altitude changes a little bit due to environmental factors.

Learning how to manipulate your canopy in slow flight is also key. As is learning about stall characteristics. The recovery arc effects you more than just how much altitude it takes your canopy to come out of a dive. Understanding how it effects your canopy from a simple toggle turn or coming out of brakes makes a big difference.

Pulling on a front riser is Step 2 of the progression. Step 1 is becoming a very skilled and experienced canopy pilot with whatever canopy you currently have.

Absolutely correct. I'm sorry, I should have clarified my statement to say "Yes, I do intend on becoming a high-performance canopy pilot."

[Marinus 0]

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in the peas

or is it

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to land in the peas

[delurk]Came across this phrase a couple of times now, and Google won't tell me what it means. You may all kick my a$$ for being off topic, now, but can someone please tell me what it means? Oh, and on topic, as far as I understand what swooping is, it's rather unlikely I'll ever do it[/delurk]

[AggieDave 6]

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in the peas

or is it

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to land in the peas

[delurk]Came across this phrase a couple of times now, and Google won't tell me what it means. You may all kick my a$$ for being off topic, now, but can someone please tell me what it means? Oh, and on topic, as far as I understand what swooping is, it's rather unlikely I'll ever do it[/delurk]

Historically, in the US at least, dropzones had a large pit dug on the dropzone that was filled with pea gravel. It was originally for landing round parachutes in, but has stayed with us since then. It is a popular target for accuracy landings.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Marinus 0]

Thank you!

[popsjumper 2]

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or are you talking about a 90 front riser turn and planing out in rear risers on a triathalon?

top

Count me in!
Even I can do that!
I'm a swooper! I'm a swooper!
Hell, I can go one better and land on the rears!
SWOOP! SWOOP!!


to the OP:
DO I LOOK CRAZY????????

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Just like skydiving itself, its risk reward....Some people on here are starting to sound like my whuffo friends when they discuss swooping. I would think skydivers more than most would "get it".

Oh, yeah...we "get it". What "we" get is a different threshold on that reward/risk ratio. Is there a problem with that?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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You start "swooping" now....

RE-READ DAVE'S POST #39 ABOVE.
NOW GO BACK AND READ IT AGAIN.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 16]

Well okay, I'll weigh in.

I do rad 90 degree front riser turns from base to final and swoop my 1.3 loaded (that's "expert" loading, ya know) Stiletto close to 100', maybe more, across the turf. I've been told I look like one of the Red Bull guys . . . in slow motion.

Yes, I'm an old fart, and I don't really think I'll ever crank a 270 on a Velo. That's fine. I'll just keep on enjoying my time in this sport.