goose491 0 #51 September 7, 2005 QuoteI heard that from several people about not pulling silver right away. Honestly, the thought did not even cross my mind at the time. But its moot anyway because my rig has an RSL so as soon as I chopped Right, right... forgot you had mentioned the RSL. QuoteIf I had been thinking about that, I could've disconnected it and then freefell for a bit. That probably would've been better cuz then I probably could've landed on the airport and I wouldn't have been freezling up there for so long with tired arms. ... something to consider I guess. Especially if something like this were to occur on a High-Altitude jump? I'm going to mention this in the RSL debate thread going on right now, might as well add the food for thought. Well, Thanks for the input and again, good job. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #52 September 7, 2005 At this point in your jumping career Jeth, as long as you have chosen to go with the RSL, it's probably for the best....as evidenced by the fact that everything worked out. The rsl is designed primarily with LOW altitude cutaways in mind... i . e. NO wasted time between release and reserve... Your situation ( High Altitude mal ) poses an interesting scenario. I think you should not be spending Any time to try to disconnect the rsl, before the cutaway.... though it would be nice to utilize some of the altitude to reestablich yourself in freefall before the reserve pull,,,, assuring yourself that you are clear of the bad main..... But then again.. i would NOT advocate getting going all the way back up to terminal,, and then pulling the reserve..( though you were moving pretty fast already ) a slower deployment speed for a reserve makes sense to me...... even if it means that you're open at 6 or 7 grand....Taking it down soas to "get back" to the dz ... is not something I might do. (Unless i was injured, and knew it. i.e. dislocated shoulder) We have to be confident in our abilties to safely accomplish an 'off-field' landing,,,, every time... hell we used to do it all the time with low performance round canopies,,, no reason a ram air can't be 'tamed down' so that it can be landed ANYwhere.... a good consideration when deciding on wing loading..... I suppose, that by muscle memory you should have continued your E P's and pulled the reserve handle even though the rsl had already put you into opening shock... still... thanks to the heads up from Al everything left you.. like it should, when you pulled the 3 ring release... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #53 September 7, 2005 I did complete my EP's. I had my hands on the silver handle, the RSL just beat me to it. (I think. Maybe I got it first. All I know is my reserve was open fast and both my handles were gone. (I was trained to throw them away so thats what I did)) Oh ya, I'm not planning on getting rid of my RSL or disconnecting it. It was just in hindsight that I thought it would've been nicer to not have such a long reserve ride. But if I had a mal at normal pull altitude I'm sure I would appreciate the speed at which the RSL gets the reserve over my head. (But I will still complete my EP's.)"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #54 September 7, 2005 ..excellent then.... well done jmy.......o[:-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #55 September 7, 2005 Quote But then again.. i would NOT advocate getting going all the way back up to terminal,, and then pulling the reserve..( though you were moving pretty fast already ) a slower deployment speed for a reserve makes sense to me...... What about delaying the reserve to get the speed back down to [normal] terminal? A sustained baglock at high altitude would be moving pretty fast. 180? Though in this case, sounded like she was still on the hill when it occurred? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #56 September 7, 2005 QuoteQuote But then again.. i would NOT advocate getting going all the way back up to terminal,, and then pulling the reserve..( though you were moving pretty fast already ) a slower deployment speed for a reserve makes sense to me...... What about delaying the reserve to get the speed back down to [normal] terminal? A sustained baglock at high altitude would be moving pretty fast. 180? Though in this case, sounded like she was still on the hill when it occurred? I'm not sure how fast I was going. I think by the time I pulled I was probably off the hill at that point. I'd have to watch the video again to see. But I also wasn't vertical when I chopped, I was on my back. And if I recall correctly, a couple people in my group were pretty much on-level with me so I must've not been going that much faster than them."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #57 September 9, 2005 Not wanting to go to terminal before reserve deployment is a valid thought. I guess it has to be weighed against the perils of 'hanging around' under said reserve, "Freezing with tired arms" One thing that caught my attention when I asked Jeth did she contemplate freefalling a bit more (having forgotten she mentioned an RSL), was that the thought of disconnecting the RSL didn't even come to mind. An RSL is very much like an AAD in that it is a backup, intended for when things go very wrong and it is not to be relied upon... But it's very different from an AAD in that it cannot be a "set it and forget it" piece of equipment. I can think of two scenarios where it would be downright crutial to have the presence of mind to disconect the RSL: 1) Exact same situation, but on a High Altitude jump 2) A canopy wrap situation I'm definately not critisising here, but I'd of been happier to hear: "I decided against disconecting the RSL as I didn't want to take my reserve terminal." then: "The thought never crossed my mind." You provide very insightful post, I just add that a connected RSL should be considered when you chop. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmytavino 16 #58 September 10, 2005 a connected rsl should be considered when you chop*** Yes... agreed but for most that consideration is made WHEN they decide to USE the rsl in the first place.... I believe you'd agree with me.. that anything which takes TIME,,, could pose more problems than solutions.... NO NO NO to devoting any time to disconnecting that lanyard,,,, unless.... the jumper has MUCHO MUCHO altitude.....like a malfunctioned main at exit,,, or as you say, a canopy wrap.... ( CReW must always be practiced with a hard deck in mind.....so that any wrap occurring would happen ONLY above that deck ) then if the jumper is at 4 grand or higher lets say,, there would be some time to release the lanyard.... Though I know of very few Canopy Formation pilots who would even use an rsl... Students, novices, and intermediate jumpers should not burn valuable altitude messing around trying to fumble with that lanyard Period they should move into em. procedures, just as Jeth did........immediately Unless it is the dead of winter or weather conditions are especially brutal,,, an extra 1,000 feet or 2 or 3 ,000 feet spent under the reserve should not be a problem..... When a jumper's level of experience and saavy grows,, and if emergency procedures have been properly executed once or twice,, including immediate pull of the reserve handle,,,upon cutaway then the individual decision whether to use or forego the RSL can be made,,,,,, But in most situations it is a good thing to have.....Personally I have never used one,,,, even when they were used with "old gear". There used to be a "stevens system" which included a length of webbing which ran from the T-10 risers directly to the Ripcord HANDLE of a chest mount reserve... Yikes!!!!! never liked that idea,,, never used it... but I jumpmastered alot of static line students who used it..... In the days when we used shot and a half or even 2 shot capewells, a cross connector between the risers assured that both risers would have to be jettisoned before the reserve would open... ( Without the cross connector.. one side could release,, resulting in a streamer attached to the jumper via the Non released riser...) remember this was in the days before simultaneous release was assured thanks to the 3 ring system. I was always confident that i could pull my reserve, as EVERY jumper should be... so I didn't want that reserve ripcord handle smashing me in the face as i fell away from the main.... I fly cameras nowadays... have adjusted my pull altitude UPWARDS 100 feet or so each year,, now pull mostly above 3 grand,,, 4 grand +,, if it's a tandem or AFF dive ,,, and am confident that I will manually extract my reserve ripcord,, in a timely fashion immediately after pulling my 3 ring release handle......should the need arise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #59 September 18, 2005 Teach the people in your group to check your pin before you put your rig on and then we can do it on the plane. I've noticed that very few people do pinchecks in the plane anymore. In the old days (the magical mythical seventies) everyone used to do them before jump run. I'm not so sure why they don't nowadays, except I am wary myself about letting just anyone poke around with my gear just before exit. My rig's a Javelin and I'm touchy about the closing flap being closed back up so it won't come loose in freefall (which is something of an issue with Javelins, but that's another story). The solution is that I have a best friend who I jump with a lot and we give each other pin checks. He also jumps a Javelin. But he wouldn't really have to be jumping the same kind of rig either. As long as he understands my rig and I understand his rig, he could be jumping a Vector, Talon, Racer, Infinity, you name it, so long as we've gone over how it closes on the ground. If you're like most jumpers, you're probably settling into a few steady friends who you jump with a lot. If you all just take a few minutes to get familiar with each other's closing procedures, you can give each other pin checks at altitude and go sailing out the door with an extra degree of confidence and safety. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #53 September 7, 2005 I did complete my EP's. I had my hands on the silver handle, the RSL just beat me to it. (I think. Maybe I got it first. All I know is my reserve was open fast and both my handles were gone. (I was trained to throw them away so thats what I did)) Oh ya, I'm not planning on getting rid of my RSL or disconnecting it. It was just in hindsight that I thought it would've been nicer to not have such a long reserve ride. But if I had a mal at normal pull altitude I'm sure I would appreciate the speed at which the RSL gets the reserve over my head. (But I will still complete my EP's.)"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #54 September 7, 2005 ..excellent then.... well done jmy.......o[:-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #55 September 7, 2005 Quote But then again.. i would NOT advocate getting going all the way back up to terminal,, and then pulling the reserve..( though you were moving pretty fast already ) a slower deployment speed for a reserve makes sense to me...... What about delaying the reserve to get the speed back down to [normal] terminal? A sustained baglock at high altitude would be moving pretty fast. 180? Though in this case, sounded like she was still on the hill when it occurred? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #56 September 7, 2005 QuoteQuote But then again.. i would NOT advocate getting going all the way back up to terminal,, and then pulling the reserve..( though you were moving pretty fast already ) a slower deployment speed for a reserve makes sense to me...... What about delaying the reserve to get the speed back down to [normal] terminal? A sustained baglock at high altitude would be moving pretty fast. 180? Though in this case, sounded like she was still on the hill when it occurred? I'm not sure how fast I was going. I think by the time I pulled I was probably off the hill at that point. I'd have to watch the video again to see. But I also wasn't vertical when I chopped, I was on my back. And if I recall correctly, a couple people in my group were pretty much on-level with me so I must've not been going that much faster than them."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #57 September 9, 2005 Not wanting to go to terminal before reserve deployment is a valid thought. I guess it has to be weighed against the perils of 'hanging around' under said reserve, "Freezing with tired arms" One thing that caught my attention when I asked Jeth did she contemplate freefalling a bit more (having forgotten she mentioned an RSL), was that the thought of disconnecting the RSL didn't even come to mind. An RSL is very much like an AAD in that it is a backup, intended for when things go very wrong and it is not to be relied upon... But it's very different from an AAD in that it cannot be a "set it and forget it" piece of equipment. I can think of two scenarios where it would be downright crutial to have the presence of mind to disconect the RSL: 1) Exact same situation, but on a High Altitude jump 2) A canopy wrap situation I'm definately not critisising here, but I'd of been happier to hear: "I decided against disconecting the RSL as I didn't want to take my reserve terminal." then: "The thought never crossed my mind." You provide very insightful post, I just add that a connected RSL should be considered when you chop. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #58 September 10, 2005 a connected rsl should be considered when you chop*** Yes... agreed but for most that consideration is made WHEN they decide to USE the rsl in the first place.... I believe you'd agree with me.. that anything which takes TIME,,, could pose more problems than solutions.... NO NO NO to devoting any time to disconnecting that lanyard,,,, unless.... the jumper has MUCHO MUCHO altitude.....like a malfunctioned main at exit,,, or as you say, a canopy wrap.... ( CReW must always be practiced with a hard deck in mind.....so that any wrap occurring would happen ONLY above that deck ) then if the jumper is at 4 grand or higher lets say,, there would be some time to release the lanyard.... Though I know of very few Canopy Formation pilots who would even use an rsl... Students, novices, and intermediate jumpers should not burn valuable altitude messing around trying to fumble with that lanyard Period they should move into em. procedures, just as Jeth did........immediately Unless it is the dead of winter or weather conditions are especially brutal,,, an extra 1,000 feet or 2 or 3 ,000 feet spent under the reserve should not be a problem..... When a jumper's level of experience and saavy grows,, and if emergency procedures have been properly executed once or twice,, including immediate pull of the reserve handle,,,upon cutaway then the individual decision whether to use or forego the RSL can be made,,,,,, But in most situations it is a good thing to have.....Personally I have never used one,,,, even when they were used with "old gear". There used to be a "stevens system" which included a length of webbing which ran from the T-10 risers directly to the Ripcord HANDLE of a chest mount reserve... Yikes!!!!! never liked that idea,,, never used it... but I jumpmastered alot of static line students who used it..... In the days when we used shot and a half or even 2 shot capewells, a cross connector between the risers assured that both risers would have to be jettisoned before the reserve would open... ( Without the cross connector.. one side could release,, resulting in a streamer attached to the jumper via the Non released riser...) remember this was in the days before simultaneous release was assured thanks to the 3 ring system. I was always confident that i could pull my reserve, as EVERY jumper should be... so I didn't want that reserve ripcord handle smashing me in the face as i fell away from the main.... I fly cameras nowadays... have adjusted my pull altitude UPWARDS 100 feet or so each year,, now pull mostly above 3 grand,,, 4 grand +,, if it's a tandem or AFF dive ,,, and am confident that I will manually extract my reserve ripcord,, in a timely fashion immediately after pulling my 3 ring release handle......should the need arise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #59 September 18, 2005 Teach the people in your group to check your pin before you put your rig on and then we can do it on the plane. I've noticed that very few people do pinchecks in the plane anymore. In the old days (the magical mythical seventies) everyone used to do them before jump run. I'm not so sure why they don't nowadays, except I am wary myself about letting just anyone poke around with my gear just before exit. My rig's a Javelin and I'm touchy about the closing flap being closed back up so it won't come loose in freefall (which is something of an issue with Javelins, but that's another story). The solution is that I have a best friend who I jump with a lot and we give each other pin checks. He also jumps a Javelin. But he wouldn't really have to be jumping the same kind of rig either. As long as he understands my rig and I understand his rig, he could be jumping a Vector, Talon, Racer, Infinity, you name it, so long as we've gone over how it closes on the ground. If you're like most jumpers, you're probably settling into a few steady friends who you jump with a lot. If you all just take a few minutes to get familiar with each other's closing procedures, you can give each other pin checks at altitude and go sailing out the door with an extra degree of confidence and safety. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #60 September 19, 2005 Of course, being at a Canadian dropzone means I am very seldom sitting in between two strangers but that being said, I get my pins check on each and every jump, just before jump run. I used to have only my main checked but lately I have been asking to take a look at both. I seriously doubt the potential of somebody mucking it up. I jump a wings. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #61 September 26, 2005 Ok, finally got the video uploaded. Check it out on skydivingmovies.com http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2746"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #62 September 27, 2005 QuoteI can think of two scenarios where it would be downright crutial to have the presence of mind to disconect the RSL: 1) Exact same situation, but on a High Altitude jump 2) A canopy wrap situation Or if you land in a dangerous place where you could be dragged let's say off a building or off a cliff by your main before it deflates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #63 September 27, 2005 QuoteOr if you land in a dangerous place where you could be dragged let's say off a building or off a cliff by your main before it deflates. You wouldn't have to disconnect the RSL is that case, just collapse or cutaway your main. Your reserve won't inflate in ground winds, at least not in winds that you should be flying, much less, jumping in. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
