Progression of a sport

[waveoff5500 0]

im talking in general, when it comes to risky sports, can there be "safe" progression? are there "safe" ways to push the envelope, and who should be the people pushing the sport? newer people who have the gungho attitude? or experienced people who have the knowledge to aid them in their goal of progression?

my argument would be that there is always a component of risk in progression because by the very nature of it people are touching the unknown, and with the unknown could be dangers that there are no ways to prepare for.

in BMX for example, the person who really stands out as pushing the sport would be mat hoffman, also a skydiver/base jumper, but he has paid for it dearly with damage to his body. nowadays the progression of bmx/skateboarding etc is aided by foam pits and training ramps which give a somewhat forgiving environment for learning. that said, i broke my back on a "training ramp" haha.

just thought this could be a cool conversation, what limits do you see on skydiving in general, and who really pushes the envelope to the point where its hard to watch, but exciting to see?

thanks!

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[sffudapparel 0]

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in BMX for example, the person who really stands out as pushing the sport would be mat hoffman, also a skydiver/base jumper, but he has paid for it dearly with damage to his body.

Just want to point out that Hoffman is THE MAN. That guy has given more to BMX than I thought was humanly possible. Dude has given everything to that sport.

Thats all...

Dream my life, live my dream

[waveoff5500 0]

yes he definitely has, ive read his book twice (ride of my life) and its seriously insane. the guy has had over 100 unconscious concussions, has synthetic ACLs, broken everything, no spleen, etc. He really is an icon, and a legend and i hope to meet him one day soon. he has come to the skatepark that i work at but i was out of town that day!

thats what im saying though, he has given everything to progress a sport beyond what people thought was possible and set a foundation for new riders to build on that these days is ridiculously impressive to say the least. but at what price has he done this? as he gets older his quality of life will no doubt degrade quickly.

so has there been any people like this in skydiving? that without them it would be a drastically different sport?

also does progression have to be done with that much risk where the envelope is truly being pushed?

it seems that ignorance of the dangers or full acceptance of the risks might be a key component in the progression of a sport.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[wildcard451 0]

There are plenty of people that are now dead that have helped us define where limts are in this sport. Unfortunately, when we mess up, the result is usually not just a concussion.

[waveoff5500 0]

i met a bmxer named stephen murray at dew tour one year, and he was in a fully motorized wheel chair because he had suffered a severe spinal injury at dewtour the year before doing a double backflip. he was one of the guys that was trying to push the sport and make a double flip just a normal trick, and he is now paralyzed from the neck down. its ashame that he is like that now, but that gave the entire sport a reality check, and redefined how things were learned.

is that kind of thing looked down on in skydiving? putting it all on the line to push the sport?

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[Willi91 0]

Well, the closest thing you get to foam pits in skydiving is the pond, I guess..

I also think that the general boundaries are pretty much dialed in. Pushing the envelope too much can be deadly, so going there might not be as forgiving as on a bmx bike.

I believe that after all we have to listen to the experienced guys with lots of jumps, even though they sometimes sound like big, arrogant jerks here. But I guess, they're right in most of their statements.

[Arvoitus 1]

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so has there been any people like this in skydiving? that without them it would be a drastically different sport?

Patrick de Gayardon, father of the modern commercial wingsuits. He died on a jump whilst testing his suit.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[waveoff5500 0]

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I also think that the general boundaries are pretty much dialed in. Pushing the envelope too much can be deadly, so going there might not be as forgiving as on a bmx bike.

i realize the margin for error is greater on a bmx bike, i was just using bmx as an example. but many would scoff at the statement that the boundaries are dialed in. i realize the consequences may be fatal, but that doesnt mean the boundaries have been reached.

take the wingsuit landing project for example. after a certain point, there is no backing out of that, especially if you dont have a rig on, but that is pushing the boundaries. whats after that? wingsuit formations all landing without parachutes? or something more?

i think what is possible is only limited to how creative someone is.
it only takes one person to show that something is possible and then the fun starts and this has been shown in freeflying, swooping, downsizing etc.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[waveoff5500 0]

Thats what im talking about, without him would there be any XRW? would there be any wingsuit base?

also to clarify im not saying people shouldnt heed the advice of the more experienced jumpers regardless of age, because they have earned the respect. where the line gets blurred is when people do listen to the advice, take into account what the risks are and then push the seal as hard as they can which sometimes ends in death.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[beowulf 1]

I met Mat Hoffman a couple of weeks ago. He and bunch of other guys showed up at Skydive Dallas to do some jumps. He seemed like a really nice guy and fairly quiet. Not brash or loud. I didn't know who he was till someone else said something and even then I didn't recongnize his name and had to Google him. He has led a very interesting life.

[waveoff5500 0]

i can truly say he is one of the inspirations in my life. all the interviews/stories ive heard about him (because bmx is a pretty tight circle of people) have only backed what your experience with him was. check out his book i think its called "the ride of my life" its awesome, some cool base and skydiving stories included in there too. he is a big reason why action sports have achieved mainstream success.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[mjosparky 4]

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so has there been any people like this in skydiving? that without them it would be a drastically different sport?

And the sad fact is that most of them are dead.

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is that kind of thing looked down on in skydiving? putting it all on the line to push the sport?

I think you will find that in most extreme sports people do not push their limits for the betterment of the sport. They do it for personal gratification and to feed their ego.

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i can truly say he is one of the inspirations in my life.

It would be hard for me to be inspired by someone with over 100 concussions and “broken everything”. A legend maybe and icon no. If you are looking for and icon look to Tony Hawk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hawk#External_links

The problem I see is jumpers pushing the limits when they have not yet learned the basics. You have a very small group of “big boys” doing some really neat shit. Soon every body wants to grow up and be just like them. Skydiving has no margin for error, small mistakes can and will kill you. No second chances. Not every jumper has the ability or attitude to be a world class skydiver. A good example is the fact that 29 jumper have died this year under a good canopy. Now that is sad.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BMFin 0]

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is that kind of thing looked down on in skydiving? putting it all on the line to push the sport?

It is very different.

In skydiving majority will consider a person who never got injured as someone who has always done everything right.

In motocross for example majority will consider a person with no injuries as someone who isnt really a true motocross rider.

[jtiflyer 0]

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Well, the closest thing you get to foam pits in skydiving is the pond, I guess..

have you ever seen somebody hit a pond in a dive? They die just as easily as hitting the ground

[pchapman 279]

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In skydiving majority will consider a person who never got injured as someone who has always done everything right.
In motocross for example majority will consider a person with no injuries as someone who isnt really a true motocross rider.

I've wondered about that sort of thing. In skydiving, if you break a bone, you're a screwup. It is forgivable if you are a total newbie, but if you were swooping, you're not only an idiot but a shameful black mark upon the sport.

I get the impression that breaking something isn't that uncommon for even the experienced recreational BMX rider.

(Attitudes towards risk depend on how likely injuries are when doing a certain activity, and to what degree the risks are controllable. So there are of course factors other than the culture of the two sports at work here.)

[thrillstalker 0]

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Well, the closest thing you get to foam pits in skydiving is the pond, I guess..

have you ever seen somebody hit a pond in a dive? They die just as easily as hitting the ground

too true

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[davelepka 4]

You're missing big, huge chunks of the point.

Hoffman is the man, for sure, but he wasn't always 'Hoffman'. At one point, he was some kid named Matt bunny hopping curbs outside the mall. Over the years, he ramped it up to what you see today, but that was a progression, and what you see today is the result of years of experience and training added to his giant sack of natural ability (and his giant sack).

In BMX, there's a big difference between the curb at the mall, and a mega-ramp. In skydiving, there isn't the same difference. A 100 jump wonder (like yourself) is taking mostly the same risks as a 5000 jump wonder (like me) on a given jump. We're both taking a similar risk, while Matt at the mall and Hoffman on the mega-ramp are doing two very different things.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Hoffman is one of the best ever in his sport. The things that he does and the way he does them are not for everyone, so comparing his progression to an 'average' rider just isn't right. The 'average' rider will always appear to be 'behind' what Hoffman is doing, but that's not because there's something wrong with the other guy, it's because there's something right with Hoffman.

In the end, any sort of 'pushing' should be at the far end of a learning progression. Stay well back from the edge until you have 'confirmed' your natural ability, and built a foundation of education and experience. Once you've been at it a few years, seen a few things and done a few more, you'll have an idea of how much 'Hoffman' you have in you, and then you can push.

[Marisan 0]

In extreme sports if you fuck up you, at the best, get severely injured. At worst you die.

If you're are stupid, well the penalty for stupidity has always been death.

Take that however you want to.

[waveoff5500 0]

to respond to a few of you in general:

it might be hard for you to look up to someone with that many injuries as an icon, but he is the reason the x games are out, he is the reason action sports "Careers" are more acceptable now. it used to be that people could make a living as a basketball player but if some guy was good on a skateboard he was just some punk who didnt have a job. mat hoffman and tony hawk are pretty much one in the same. you dont think tony hawk has been injured numerous times? also they both pioneered the tricks that are still a big deal today. i grew up in bmx before foam pits were the norm, and there is a stark difference between people who were naturally good at what they did, and the riders of today. i go to the park to ride now and there are little kids doing back flips into foam before they even know how to do a bunny hop. foam pits have literally turned these sports into video games when you see what people are doing now. so it isnt a close comparison to skydiving these days as it was when i was growing up. we would learn tricks by just trying them, watching the others and sometimes we would get hurt. ive seen the hospital from both sides and im not trying to downplay the seriousness of skydiving. but i do agree that any injury in bmx that an experienced skydiver suffers is looked down on, while in bmx and other sports its just a part of it. lepka is right when he talks about his natural skill, but it was also creativity and the asking why cant something be done that really made hoffman successful. i am not in a rush to become a world class skydiver, and i realize that there is a lot to learn, but this isnt about me, this is about what is in the future for skydiving, and how people have broken through the "boundaries" im still new to skydiving, i dont know how its been done. please enlighten me.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[waveoff5500 0]

i think what im trying to say is if a world class skydiver, possessing all the right skills and experience, wanted to really push hard would it be respected by the skydiving community?

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[wildcard451 0]

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i think what im trying to say is if a world class skydiver, possessing all the right skills and experience, wanted to really push hard would it be respected by the skydiving community?

Yes. And they are.

[davelepka 4]

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lepka is right when he talks about his natural skill

Just to be clear, that's not what I said. I just highlighted the similar risk that we both take in just making a jump regardless of our respective experience level, while a kid on a curb is risking way less than a guy on a mega-ramp.

It only looks like I have natural skill becuase you met me 16 years and 5000 jumps into my learning progression. It wasn't always this pretty. I'm more of a sledgehammer than a paintbrush, and I just beat skydiving into submission with years of a stubborn refusal to suck.

Back to what you were saying, all things are relative. Sure a foam pit has made the backflip 'no big deal', but these days you NEED a backflip or two with a variation to even think about placing in a competition. The bottom end is coming up, but so is the top, so it still takes the same amount of blood, sweat and tears to get to the top as it always did. Truth be told, it might even take more because the risks become higher as the ramps get bigger, the number of rotations go up, or the canopies get smaller.

The other guys are right, breaking through boundries in skydiving ends up with dead bodies. Wingsuits, swooping, base jumping, proximity flying, they're all out there on the leading edge of what's possible, but they also have made their contributions to the body count. You only really find out how far you can go when you go too far, and when you're talking about using parachutes to save your life, too far is when your life isn't saved.

[waveoff5500 0]

cool thats what i wanted to know! thanks guys!

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[Willi91 0]

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Well, the closest thing you get to foam pits in skydiving is the pond, I guess..

have you ever seen somebody hit a pond in a dive? They die just as easily as hitting the ground

No, I haven't. But my point was not that if you have a pond you wont get hurt. I'm not that stupid. It was a bad attempt to underline, that boundaries have been reached and crossed, by those who get seriously injured or die.

With my post I was mostly having canopy piloting in mind, while this is where I have most of my focus right now. I don't believe that there is many ways of speeding progress up much further than where we already are.

[virgin-burner 1]

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In skydiving majority will consider a person who never got injured as someone who has always done everything right.
In motocross for example majority will consider a person with no injuries as someone who isnt really a true motocross rider.

I've wondered about that sort of thing. In skydiving, if you break a bone, you're a screwup. It is forgivable if you are a total newbie, but if you were swooping, you're not only an idiot but a shameful black mark upon the sport.

I get the impression that breaking something isn't that uncommon for even the experienced recreational BMX rider.

(Attitudes towards risk depend on how likely injuries are when doing a certain activity, and to what degree the risks are controllable. So there are of course factors other than the culture of the two sports at work here.)

so ian drennan, shannon pilcher or brian vacher are screwups, idiots or black marks on the sport!? interesting.

just from the top of my head..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda