ridestrong 1 #1 April 13, 2011 Mile-Hi now requires that new jumpers do virtually all their jumps with a coach after passing AFF, until they get their 'A' license. It goes something like this: -Pass 7 jump AFF course. -Do 1 solo. -Do 1 hop & pop. -the remainder ~16 jumps must be completed with a certified coach. The up side is that new jumpers 'should' get much better training than they would doing solos until their 'A'. Although I'm sure that some out there think that those solo jumps are an important part of a starting skydiver. The down side is the significant extra cost, after already forking out for AFF. I don't know the exact cost of the coach jumps but my guess would be somewhere around $85.... ~$60 for coach and ticket + $25 for rental gear. I can see the up-side and down-side to this but haven't formed a strong opinion for or against it. Thoughts?*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #2 April 13, 2011 Coming from a background of "pay it skyward" and doing jumps with students on my own dime or at worst having my slot paid, I find this appalling if for no other reason than the cost factor. Coming from a background where all of my home DZs subscribed to the "pay it forward" concept, I find it appalling for the same reason. The idea is great, the added cost sucks. ....And why need it be mandated? Does that mean the nobody at the DZ is allowed to jump with the student for free? If I were a student I'd be voting with my feet. OTOH, maybe that's what the DZ wants...fewer students. I dunno.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #3 April 13, 2011 IMHO this is bullshit. The USPA says that a student that has been cleared for solo may jump with a D license holder and the approval of the SATA. They should not gouge the students like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #4 April 13, 2011 A DZ in my local area has been trying to do things more that way. But it's in the Canadian environment, where there are a bunch of things after the AFF / PFF that have to get signed off by different levels of coaches anyway, including some RW fundamentals training. (Those sign offs can come only from coaches. Another issue of course is how coaches are paid, whether there is a standard rate through the school, or whether any coach can take up the student for any fee from zero on up.) So in my area novices will have to go up with coaches a bunch of times anyway. The US situation may be different. But it is interesting to see the reasoning: It isn't so much that the DZO wants the money. After all, someone without a license isn't as likely to go off to another DZ, they keep on renting, and they'll still have to do all their coach jumps eventually. What the policy does do is keep people from being eternal students, pushing them to progress, rather than taking forever to finish their license. Those guys are around the DZ so long that people forget their student status, and that leads to bandit RW jumps. The problem the DZO & staff wrestle with, is that sometimes a coach isn't available, or a student just wants to practice something they are having issues with, before paying a coach to witness the maneuver. Or the novice just wants a few fun, relaxed jumps thrown in between what are essentially evaluation jumps. So there are reasons both to push students to progress, and reasons to let them have some fun jumps along the way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
againsthumanity 0 #5 April 13, 2011 Total bullshit. I mean, as a coach I would love the extra money and free jumps but this is totally about the DZ making more money. Fuck, i never knew what a coach was until I asked about the coach course at 95 jumps.....I love BASE because cliffs don't crash A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nutz 0 #6 April 13, 2011 Doesn't Mullins give coach jumps for free? I would be a coach but my dz will not let me jump with students for free. I jump with newbies whenever I can because I have a D license, I just can't sign their cards. "Don't! Get! Eliminated!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bqmassey 0 #7 April 13, 2011 I have no problem with a DZ that wants to add to the USPA requirements; that's entirely their decision. That's the free market and they have the right to do so. Students that don't like their way of doing things don't have to jump there, and I wouldn't. I like that I, as a post-AFF, pre-A-License jumper, have a little bit of control over my experience. It did help me to have a few jumps completely solo where I had nobody to impress. It gave me confidence in the basic skydiving skills, and it was the first time I could completely relax and enjoy the jump. I think that solo jumps during this phase of training are pretty valuable. I've done seven of these solo jumps now, and have gotten to a point where they're not helping me and I do need to jump with a coach. I appreciate that my DZs give you the flexibility to say "no, I want to jump alone" or "yes, I'd like to work with a coach this jump". So, like popsjumper said, vote with your feet (and $$$). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cripdaddy 0 #8 April 13, 2011 is mile hi requireing them to use their "coachs" ?because i use to do coach jumps up their pro bono, (not part of their staff) i would even pay for my own slot. i did this out to help out the students, and now they want to stick it to them. any thoughts on a USPA coach jumping with them because they can.Crip Alapiloto Rodriguez Rodriguez Brother #1666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #9 April 13, 2011 In this economy? With this level of unemployment and lack of funding and jobs they are adding additional costs? I'm sorry why not go all the way and bring about some serious increase costs of entry. How about you need to buy brand new equipment before signing up? Or buy all of your jump tickets at the word go including rentals? Look the sport is expensive enough as it is! It can cost up to $100 a day to rent so so gear. Now a student has to drop $100 a day for rental, two $80 coached jumps, two $25 tickets? So each day they are out what? $300? And you need how many days of this before you can jump solo? I'm sorry but at that price how about the student says "Thank you but no thank you" and takes their money and invests it into say a BRAND NEW BIKE! As for you coaches, yes I now it costs a fortune and we students greatly appreciate your investment and well....I know one day I hope to be half as good as you guys such that I can coach others. But right now at this level of cost....I'm sorry. Not smart. It's not a viable move to increase the cost of entry into what I personally believe is one of the best hobbies one can partake in.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artard 0 #10 April 13, 2011 Fortunately the Ft Morgan DZ opens in a couple weeks and I know quite a few local jumpers will be voting with their feethttp://www.mixcloud.com/prajna http://vimeo.com/avidya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #11 April 13, 2011 Cheap flight to Phoenix! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feeblemind 1 #12 April 13, 2011 Quote Cheap flight to Phoenix! or LA or Sacramento or Houston or or or Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #13 April 13, 2011 Cheaper flights to: LAX SNA ONT SDA PSP LGB ~~~all within 70 mins of Skydive Elsinore or Skydive Perris. San Diego is close in there too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #14 April 13, 2011 I have to agree with you. This will in NO WAY help to grow the sport and IMO will have the complete opposite effect. I seriously do not understand the need for this. Require more awareness and skills training for all the damn canopy collisions - student jumpers are not in need of this additional "training" requirement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #15 April 13, 2011 this should make all the people with 10 jumps who think jumping solo is boring happy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #16 April 13, 2011 Quote Require more awareness and skills training for all the damn canopy collisions - student jumpers are not in need of this additional "training" requirement. A MEN BROTHER! At the moment as it stands in the SIM there is little to no real info or guidelines as to canopy control. It appear to be one of those "learn on the job" kind of skills. That well....Shah points to right leg...can really hurt! I would rather take that $300 a day I would spend on two coached jumps, give them to someone like Brian Germain or another well qualified person and have a one day lecture regarding how to land safely and how to care for my equipment.Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #17 April 13, 2011 I don't think the question about pro bono coaching was answered. Does anyone here know? - Is any certified coach okay? Even a free one? Or does MileHi require the use of their (paid? staff?) coaches? OP was clear that certified coaches are required, but he didn't give any details regarding the costs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #18 April 13, 2011 QuoteAs for you coaches, yes I now it costs a fortune and we students greatly appreciate your investment and well....I know one day I hope to be half as good as you guys such that I can coach others. But right now at this level of cost....I'm sorry. Not smart. It's not a viable move to increase the cost of entry into what I personally believe is one of the best hobbies one can partake in. If you earn a coach rating and perform a coach jump, you deserve to be paid for your work. I will say that I think the value of the work is in the neighborhood of $10 + slot. It's cheaper and less work, with fewer jumps required, to get a coach rating as opposed to an AFF or tandem rating, so the pay should be structured accordingly. I also think that the lower pay is appropriate, even for AFF rating holder performing coach jumps as a way of 'giving back' to the sport. The student is cleared to self supervise, so the level of instructor (coach) responsibility is lower, and by the time a student reaches the point of needing coach jumps, they have made an investment of time and money to the sport, and demonstrated they will most likely get a license and become a 'skydiver'. Back to the subject at hand, this is a huge jack for the students. It's true that students need a certain number of coach jumps in order to complete their A license cards, but nowhere does it state a maximum number of overall jumps before applying for an A licesne. What that means is that a guy with 12 jumps can show up to the DZ with $45 every 25 days, and do a solo to maintain their currency. So if the money is short, they can stay current and active in the sport for $45/mo. With this Mile-Hi program, the price is roughly doubled, where it takes closer to $90 to stay current, as every jump would have to be with a coach. Along those same lines, a student jumper who might have $200 to spend on their one sunny day off, can only afford two jumps with a coach, as compared to four solos, or one coach jump and two solos. In the end, I think that the average student can get an A license right at 25 jumps, with all of their coach jumps included and still have 6 or 8 solos mixed in there where they don't need a coach, just the jump numbers. So the Mile-hi gig is going to $250 to $300 to the overall cost of the license, combined with the scheduling and funding requirements of having a coach on every jump. This, combined with the tale of waiting for hours to turn a prop, then being manifested 11 loads out, makes it sound like Mile-Hi is drowning in costs. Mayeb they need to scale back to a Caravan, and only feed one engine and require fewer bodies to fly. It would cost less, and they could keep it turning sun-up to sundown. I remember this same thing happening when a Casa would show up to my old DZ. It was exciting, but you needed 20+ to fire it up, and 35+ to turn a load, so there was a lot of time sitting around with nothing happening. When we jumped the Twin Bonanza (10 place), it would fly non-stop, all day long, with every slot filled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rowet 0 #19 April 13, 2011 I have also heard, just a rumor, that if you get your A at another DZ you can't jump until you have your B. So if you get ur A in boulder and want to jump at MH you can't until you have 50 jumps. And we all know the DZ isn't hurting for money as the owner drives a hummer, wife got a nice new whip, and 50,000 dollar bathrooms installed last summer, plus renovated the whole office while taking out packing area for fun jumpers. All while fun jumper tickets go up and up and up. The only thing they have done for the fun jumpers was offer the package deal: 100 jumps for 1900 but the offer only lasted about 36 hours as I know you are aware. Skydive empire should do very well this summer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #20 April 13, 2011 QuoteI don't think the question about pro bono coaching was answered. Does anyone here know? - Is any certified coach okay? Even a free one? Or does MileHi require the use of their (paid? staff?) coaches? OP was clear that certified coaches are required, but he didn't give any details regarding the costs. Just to try to answer some questions posted. I have come to find out that: 1) The coaches have to be on the DZ payroll and approved by the DZ. 2) Coaches cannot give slots away for free. 3) I am also under the impression that students cannot choose their coach, coaches cannot choose their students. It is assigned in the rotation like AFF students.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #21 April 13, 2011 I strongly oppose this as a requirement. I would be fine with a no charge "loadmaster/jumpmaster" to oversee the jumper through gear check, boarding and exit order and exiting the a/c but only as oversight. We all ought to be doing this anyway! jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #22 April 13, 2011 Quote Require more awareness and skills training for all the damn canopy collisions - student jumpers are not in need of this additional "training" requirement. They will in fact also be getting additional/required training regarding canopy control. I'm not sure if this is considered to be included in their coaching or if this is separate training with separate costs.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 798 #23 April 13, 2011 Maybe it's just me, but I don't see canopy control as the real issue...more canopy awareness and landing areas / patterns. That ain't canopy control in my book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 April 13, 2011 their website "After successfully performing the objectives of each jump, the student moves on to the next level. After graduating from the level 7 skydive, the solo student skydiver can practice and hone their skills by themselves or with a United States Parachute Association (USPA) coach and now your skydives are only $25.00! " ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artard 0 #25 April 13, 2011 That site hasn't been updated in like 2 years. Also jumps are $27 now.http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna http://vimeo.com/avidya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
