jeepers 0 #1 August 25, 2011 I'm in the market for my first rig and although I've read plenty about keeping a low wing loading while you're learning, is there such thing as too low? If I were to buy a 260 and load it at about 0.7 would this cause me any great disadvantages? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #2 August 25, 2011 get your license first - shop later - ask your instructors! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #3 August 25, 2011 QuoteI'm in the market for my first rig and although I've read plenty about keeping a low wing loading while you're learning, is there such thing as too low? If I were to buy a 260 and load it at about 0.7 would this cause me any great disadvantages? Not now, but after some jumps you will want to jump a different canopy. Very light wingloading = not much wind penetration. After some jumps you will have to stay on the ground with moderate winds, when otherwise with your experience you could be jumping. Do not rush to buy gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 August 25, 2011 Quote I'm in the market for my first rig and although I've read plenty about keeping a low wing loading while you're learning, is there such thing as too low? If I were to buy a 260 and load it at about 0.7 would this cause me any great disadvantages? Trust your local gear dealer and buy all new custom gear now, right now! That way the gear dealer will make another large sell in a few more months when you realized you shouldn't have bought the first set of gear and you need to replace with with all new stuff. It is a total win-win for your dealer. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
potatoman 0 #5 August 25, 2011 Jeepers, My advice, and best to speak to your Chief Instructor,but here goes. 0.7 is low. Anything in and around 1 is fine. The biggest catch for a beginner is to get something thatt is square, and forgiving. 0.7 on a windy day, you might be flying backwards, and that could also be of safety concern. before buying, do more jumps, you will get the feel.You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is. Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum" Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olmed 0 #6 August 25, 2011 So the advice is to rent gear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepers 0 #7 August 25, 2011 Thanks for addressing my question Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #8 August 25, 2011 Quote Quote Not now, but after some jumps you will want to jump a different canopy. Says who?Yours is the kind of reply that is contributing to our sport's dangerous fetish with high wing loadings. The OP never detailed his personal situation other than to say he is new, so why would take the immediate and ignorant position that he will want something faster later on? Is it not possible that the OP has no desire to go fast, visit emergency rooms as a customer, or leave the sport prematurely by ramming a femur through a lung? Could it be possible that the OP is middle-aged or older and simply doesn't want to risk an injury beyond that inflicted by tricycle-riding grand kids? I have no idea what the answers to those questions are, but more importantly neither do you. STOP making the assumption that everyone wants higher wing loadings and more performance. Some folks prefer less speed and collectively we need to stop encouraging those people to go faster through our comments and attitudes.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #9 August 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Not now, but after some jumps you will want to jump a different canopy. Says who?Yours is the kind of reply that is contributing to our sport's dangerous fetish with high wing loadings. The OP never detailed his personal situation other than to say he is new, so why would take the immediate and ignorant position that he will want something faster later on? Is it not possible that the OP has no desire to go fast, visit emergency rooms as a customer, or leave the sport prematurely by ramming a femur through a lung? Could it be possible that the OP is middle-aged or older and simply doesn't want to risk an injury beyond that inflicted by tricycle-riding grand kids? I have no idea what the answers to those questions are, but more importantly neither do you. STOP making the assumption that everyone wants higher wing loadings and more performance. Some folks prefer less speed and collectively we need to stop encouraging those people to go faster through our comments and attitudes. I beg your pardon. Where do I say that I want him to downsize fast or to downsize to a ridicule small canopy? I do believe that a wingload of 0,9 or 1,0 is not ridicule high. Is a 230 or a different 260 that dangerous at the right (read conservative) time? Please keep this comments for those who advocate fast downsizing, which I do not do. I just do not think that students already have to buy stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #10 August 25, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Not now, but after some jumps you will want to jump a different canopy. Says who?Yours is the kind of reply that is contributing to our sport's dangerous fetish with high wing loadings. The OP never detailed his personal situation other than to say he is new, so why would take the immediate and ignorant position that he will want something faster later on? Is it not possible that the OP has no desire to go fast, visit emergency rooms as a customer, or leave the sport prematurely by ramming a femur through a lung? Could it be possible that the OP is middle-aged or older and simply doesn't want to risk an injury beyond that inflicted by tricycle-riding grand kids? I have no idea what the answers to those questions are, but more importantly neither do you. STOP making the assumption that everyone wants higher wing loadings and more performance. Some folks prefer less speed and collectively we need to stop encouraging those people to go faster through our comments and attitudes. I beg your pardon. Where do I say that I want him to downsize fast or to downsize to a ridicule small canopy? I do believe that a wingload of 0,9 or 1,0 is not ridicule high. Is a 230 or a different 260 that dangerous at the right (read conservative) time? Please keep this comments for those who advocate fast downsizing, which I do not do. I just do not think that students already have to buy stuff. I'll keep my comments where they are relevant, like right here. What you said was (exact quote) "Not now, but after some jumps you will want to jump a different canopy", That sure sounds you were implying that he - and by way of issuing an opinion, "they" - would want a higher loading after gaining some experience. I wasn't accusing you of recommending downsizing FAST. I was accusing you of recommending downsizing AT ALL!Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #11 August 25, 2011 QuoteJeepers, My advice, and best to speak to your Chief Instructor,but here goes. 0.7 is low. Anything in and around 1 is fine. The biggest catch for a beginner is to get something thatt is square, and forgiving. .7 or a hair lower is ideal for classic accuracy. The canopy is still responsive to input and will get you a soft landing from 3/4 brakes in tight spots where you can't crash in a pea gravel pit or on a tuffet. Quote 0.7 on a windy day, you might be flying backwards, and that could also be of safety concern. Forward speed at that wingloading is about 22 mph and about 26 at 1.0. There's a pretty small window where you'd be going backwards with one but not the other and very few situations (turbulence often goes with high winds) where I'd be willing to jump my 105 but not my 245. Spotting becomes more important with larger canopies (with an 18 MPH head wind you'll make it twice as far with the larger canopy) but you should be looking before you jump anyways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #12 August 25, 2011 QuoteForward speed at that wingloading is about 22 mph and about 26 at 1.0. QuoteI've heard speeds in that range before, but they seem a bit high to me. What is the source?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #13 August 25, 2011 >If I were to buy a 260 and load it at about 0.7 would this cause me any great disadvantages? Nope. If you like the canopy and it lands you well, there are no safety/gear reasons you would need to downsize. I would recommend not buying an F111 canopy though since they don't last as long. Fortunately 99% of the canopies you see for sale nowadays are ZP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #14 August 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteForward speed at that wingloading is about 22 mph and about 26 at 1.0. QuoteI've heard speeds in that range before, but they seem a bit high to me. What is the source? 22 MPH comes from the EIFF Classic manual which considers .7 to be the optimum wingloading for classic accuracy. With the same lift to drag ratio speed is proportional to the square root of wingloading. L/D gets worse with the same jumper under smaller canopies at higher wingloadings (the jumper's surface area isn't changing at all, line area is only dropping with the square root of square footage, and some aerodynamic effects are non-linear) but it's a close enough approximation that I used it for the 1.0 wing loading. The EIFF numbers are lower than what Paraflite claims for their military canopies with similar wing loadings (those are 9-cells with better L/D ratios and may be trimmed flatter for more offset capability) so 22 MPH is a worst-case scenario for the skydiving environment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #15 August 25, 2011 Good info on relative landing speeds. 22 or 26 mph is still a fair speed for such lightly loaded canopies. Do you know what the landing speed is for a range of modern canopies that A licencees would be using? eg what would the speed be for a Sabre at 1:1 ? Just thinking it might be helpful to know what speed we're flying around the place at. Most of us know what our loading is but just how fast are we all going? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #16 August 26, 2011 get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deltron80 0 #17 August 26, 2011 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #18 August 26, 2011 in reply to "get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! " ............................................... I think it is slightly hilarious that we don't know how fast we're going. Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? hey manufacturers ! niche market recognised, canopy speedometers could be the new 'must have' gadget on the DZ.....that and speed limits, radar checks, licence suspenesions etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #19 August 26, 2011 >Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no >lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? Well, to be fair, when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer? About the only time I ever look at my speedometer is when I start wondering if I'm going too fast, and I generally don't have that problem with my canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #20 August 26, 2011 in reply to " when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer?" .................................. My car has an audible over-speed alarm and cruise control. My canopy don't . Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. But that would be ruining the fun? Canopy speed limits for general sport skydiving? Sounds restrictive and potentially complicated /unworkable but might just be common sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #21 August 26, 2011 >Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway >mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull >into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. ?? You mean you'd say "no speeds over 15mph below 1000 feet" or something? That might cause a lot of injuries as people try to land highly loaded canopies in deep brakes. And if you think flaring is erratic now, just wait until people have to approach in deep brakes . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #22 August 26, 2011 Well I suppose the thing to do would be to set a reasonable limit.. it wouldn't have to be too slow and it could change if required. perhaps sometimes small canopies would just be too fast for the heavy traffic and these people might need a cruisier canopy for those times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sacex250 0 #23 August 27, 2011 And don't forget the "STOP" sign at ground level!It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #24 August 28, 2011 Some of us slow down before we stop not after. heck even aircraft do it ,..... but skydivers speed up for landing??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #25 August 28, 2011 that is because we're COOL.. slowing down at red lights is for old people - the COOL kids is where they accelerate! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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billvon 2,990 #13 August 25, 2011 >If I were to buy a 260 and load it at about 0.7 would this cause me any great disadvantages? Nope. If you like the canopy and it lands you well, there are no safety/gear reasons you would need to downsize. I would recommend not buying an F111 canopy though since they don't last as long. Fortunately 99% of the canopies you see for sale nowadays are ZP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #14 August 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteForward speed at that wingloading is about 22 mph and about 26 at 1.0. QuoteI've heard speeds in that range before, but they seem a bit high to me. What is the source? 22 MPH comes from the EIFF Classic manual which considers .7 to be the optimum wingloading for classic accuracy. With the same lift to drag ratio speed is proportional to the square root of wingloading. L/D gets worse with the same jumper under smaller canopies at higher wingloadings (the jumper's surface area isn't changing at all, line area is only dropping with the square root of square footage, and some aerodynamic effects are non-linear) but it's a close enough approximation that I used it for the 1.0 wing loading. The EIFF numbers are lower than what Paraflite claims for their military canopies with similar wing loadings (those are 9-cells with better L/D ratios and may be trimmed flatter for more offset capability) so 22 MPH is a worst-case scenario for the skydiving environment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #15 August 25, 2011 Good info on relative landing speeds. 22 or 26 mph is still a fair speed for such lightly loaded canopies. Do you know what the landing speed is for a range of modern canopies that A licencees would be using? eg what would the speed be for a Sabre at 1:1 ? Just thinking it might be helpful to know what speed we're flying around the place at. Most of us know what our loading is but just how fast are we all going? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #16 August 26, 2011 get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deltron80 0 #17 August 26, 2011 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #18 August 26, 2011 in reply to "get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! " ............................................... I think it is slightly hilarious that we don't know how fast we're going. Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? hey manufacturers ! niche market recognised, canopy speedometers could be the new 'must have' gadget on the DZ.....that and speed limits, radar checks, licence suspenesions etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #19 August 26, 2011 >Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no >lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? Well, to be fair, when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer? About the only time I ever look at my speedometer is when I start wondering if I'm going too fast, and I generally don't have that problem with my canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #20 August 26, 2011 in reply to " when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer?" .................................. My car has an audible over-speed alarm and cruise control. My canopy don't . Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. But that would be ruining the fun? Canopy speed limits for general sport skydiving? Sounds restrictive and potentially complicated /unworkable but might just be common sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #21 August 26, 2011 >Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway >mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull >into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. ?? You mean you'd say "no speeds over 15mph below 1000 feet" or something? That might cause a lot of injuries as people try to land highly loaded canopies in deep brakes. And if you think flaring is erratic now, just wait until people have to approach in deep brakes . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #22 August 26, 2011 Well I suppose the thing to do would be to set a reasonable limit.. it wouldn't have to be too slow and it could change if required. perhaps sometimes small canopies would just be too fast for the heavy traffic and these people might need a cruisier canopy for those times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sacex250 0 #23 August 27, 2011 And don't forget the "STOP" sign at ground level!It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trae 1 #24 August 28, 2011 Some of us slow down before we stop not after. heck even aircraft do it ,..... but skydivers speed up for landing??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #25 August 28, 2011 that is because we're COOL.. slowing down at red lights is for old people - the COOL kids is where they accelerate! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Trae 1 #15 August 25, 2011 Good info on relative landing speeds. 22 or 26 mph is still a fair speed for such lightly loaded canopies. Do you know what the landing speed is for a range of modern canopies that A licencees would be using? eg what would the speed be for a Sabre at 1:1 ? Just thinking it might be helpful to know what speed we're flying around the place at. Most of us know what our loading is but just how fast are we all going? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #16 August 26, 2011 get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deltron80 0 #17 August 26, 2011 http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #18 August 26, 2011 in reply to "get a GPS-unit, do some tests and let us know! " ............................................... I think it is slightly hilarious that we don't know how fast we're going. Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? hey manufacturers ! niche market recognised, canopy speedometers could be the new 'must have' gadget on the DZ.....that and speed limits, radar checks, licence suspenesions etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #19 August 26, 2011 >Skydiving is like driving on a 20 lane 3D motorway with any and every pleb, no >lane markers and no speed limits...and we wonder why we crash into each other? Well, to be fair, when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer? About the only time I ever look at my speedometer is when I start wondering if I'm going too fast, and I generally don't have that problem with my canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #20 August 26, 2011 in reply to " when traffic starts getting heavy and people start cutting in front of you - do you look more at the road, or do you stare at your speedometer?" .................................. My car has an audible over-speed alarm and cruise control. My canopy don't . Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. But that would be ruining the fun? Canopy speed limits for general sport skydiving? Sounds restrictive and potentially complicated /unworkable but might just be common sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #21 August 26, 2011 >Some type of canopy speed indicator might help control the 3D skyhighway >mobs (eg approach speed limits minimising over/undertaking) as they all pull >into the service centres at the same time flaring erratically at high speed. ?? You mean you'd say "no speeds over 15mph below 1000 feet" or something? That might cause a lot of injuries as people try to land highly loaded canopies in deep brakes. And if you think flaring is erratic now, just wait until people have to approach in deep brakes . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #22 August 26, 2011 Well I suppose the thing to do would be to set a reasonable limit.. it wouldn't have to be too slow and it could change if required. perhaps sometimes small canopies would just be too fast for the heavy traffic and these people might need a cruisier canopy for those times. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #23 August 27, 2011 And don't forget the "STOP" sign at ground level!It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #24 August 28, 2011 Some of us slow down before we stop not after. heck even aircraft do it ,..... but skydivers speed up for landing??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #25 August 28, 2011 that is because we're COOL.. slowing down at red lights is for old people - the COOL kids is where they accelerate! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
