Canopy Malfunction: Two Canopies Out, Biplane (with photos)

[SudsyFist 0]

Greets,

I took some ground shots of a jumper landing a two-canopy out malfunction (in a biplane) at Skydive San Diego last weekend, which I thought would be good to share for discussion and enlightenment:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sudsyfist/tags/20050910twoout/

I don't have the precise technical details, but the jumper had less than 50 jumps (I believe in the 35-40 range). Canopy sizes eluded me, unfortunately. Word at the time was that the reserve spontaneously deployed when the jumper deployed his main at a safe altitude -- this was not a CYPRES fire. Of course, more details may have since arisen.

Under two canopies, the jumper's decent rate was pretty slow, without much forward speed, either. Other than that, the photos pretty much speak for themselves. Since half the DZ shot video of this landing (you should've heard the cheers!), there'll probably be video forthcoming, as well.

So... discuss! What can we learn from this? What was done well? What could've been done better? Under what circumstances would cutting away have a been a good option? What about standup vs. PLF?

And please, be civil.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Thanks Sudsy!

Here is also an article published on PD's site I found useful as well http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

The person I spoke with at PD when this was an issue for me said most people dont even need to PLF becasue the landings are very light.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[justinb138 0]

I'm not sure what size they are, but the main is a Safire2.


Edit: and a PD Reserve...

[slug 1]

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Thanks Sudsy!

Here is also an article published on PD's site I found useful as well http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

The person I spoke with at PD when this was an issue for me said most people dont even need to PLF becasue the landings are very light.

We landed a biplane Thats a lot of nylon over your head (W/L) so the rate of descent was slow. Very easy stand up.

Down winder in high winds maybe time for a PLF.

R.I.P.

[rasmack 0]

So, out of curiosity, did he release the brakes or did he ride it in in half brakes? I could imagine that releasing the brakes would cause the two canopies to fly at different speeds increasing the risk of the configuration to change into a downplane.

Oh well, I might just be paranoid here (but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me )

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[SudsyFist 0]

He released the brakes and was steering with the toggles. You can see in photo 04 that he flares using the toggles, as well.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the USPA SIM recommends to fly a biplane with the front canopy's toggles, leaving the rear's stowed.

[Jackpunx 0]

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He released the brakes and was steering with the toggles. You can see in photo 04 that he flares using the toggles, as well.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the USPA SIM recommends to fly a biplane with the front canopy's toggles, leaving the rear's stowed.

Im new to all this.. but..
should he have left the toggles and steered with the rear riser from the front p shute?

from what I understand.. your supposed to leave the toggles matched.. if they are stowed in the back you leave the front stowed.. and visa versa..
is this the wrong thing to do?
they also told us no need to flare with two shutes out.

[goose491 0]

I believe what you have typed is the 'correct' proceedure. Leave all breaks stowed and steer with small inputs to the rear-risers of the dominant canopy.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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m new to all this.. but..
should he have left the toggles and steered with the rear riser from the front p shute?

from what I understand.. your supposed to leave the toggles matched.. if they are stowed in the back you leave the front stowed.. and visa versa..
is this the wrong thing to do?
they also told us no need to flare with two shutes out.

There is still some debate, but I agree with how you were trained. The problem is releasing the brakes may turn a stable bi-plane into a wrap or downplane at low altitude. 2-canopies out can be very un-predictable.

Derek

[Jackpunx 0]

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m new to all this.. but..
should he have left the toggles and steered with the rear riser from the front p shute?

from what I understand.. your supposed to leave the toggles matched.. if they are stowed in the back you leave the front stowed.. and visa versa..
is this the wrong thing to do?
they also told us no need to flare with two shutes out.

There is still some debate, but I agree with how you were trained. The problem is releasing the brakes may turn a stable bi-plane into a wrap or downplane at low altitude. 2-canopies out can be very un-predictable.

Derek

aggreed that they any changes can make for an unpredictable ride.. but if you seperate your shutes by 10' then you should cut away anyway?..I understand at low alt you shouldnt make any sudden changes if you on your way to a safe landing.. but I was told that the shutes are much less predictable if the toggles dont match.
Keep in mind.. I only have 2 jumps.. very little experience.. but what I can share is what they are teaching in AFF because its freash in my head.

[blithedj 0]

I was instructed in my first jump course to ride out a bi-plane until they either end up side-by-side or if they start to seperate and both point towards the ground in a dive, at which point I was told is a good time to cutaway your main as the canopies would have good seperation.

[BigSky 2]

The sim does tell you to fly front canopy with toggles
http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section5.htm#51

Seems to me it would be better to leave them stowed. Does anyone know the reasoning behind the sims recommendation?

“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th

[Jackpunx 0]

this is not what they taught us in class.. Im not sure why.. but Im going with what my coaches tell me

[parachutist 2]

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Seems to me it would be better to leave them stowed. Does anyone know the reasoning behind the sims recommendation?

Toggles stowed means slow flight. The slower the flight, the closer the canopy is to a stall. If a canopy encounters turbulence and toggles are stowed, then canopy is more likely to malfunction. Let the front canopy fly.

What happens if you unstow toggles on the rear canopy too? Then the rear canopy will fly faster forward and may press on the front canopy. If this happens then the nose of the rear canopy will likely be pressing on the brake lines of front canopy. This can cause unstable flight or malfunction.

So I agree with the SIM: unstow the front canopy's brakes, leave the rear canopy's brakes stowed. Make only light turns.

[billvon 2,998]

>So I agree with the SIM: unstow the front canopy's brakes, leave the
>rear canopy's brakes stowed. Make only light turns.

I recommend something slightly different. If you open, release your brakes, and then realize you have two out - then leave that alone and make only minor corrections, per the SIM. The main will usually end up in front. However, if you look up and see two canopies deployed, and they are not misbehaving - leave them alone and make only minor changes via riser turns. The thinking here is that you don't mess with a stable configuration.

[MB38 0]

I've been taught to steer with the rear risers of the front canopy. I've always wondered, however, what would happen if one unstowed all four brakes and simply held two in each hand.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[monkycndo 0]

I've been there. I already had my toggles out on the main when I realized I had two out. Started as a side by side. Since the toggles were still set on the reserve. the main pulled ahead and the reserve just tucked in behind as a biplane. The reserve acted a little like a drogue chute slowing me down. I was ready to chop if it had gone downplane instead. It was stable to fly. Steered it gingerly with the toggles and put it down safely. Still PLF'd just to make sure I didn't break myself. It was a weird feeling having 346sf of canopy over my head.

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Jump an Infinity

[catfishhunter 2]

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I've been taught to steer with the rear risers of the front canopy. I've always wondered, however, what would happen if one unstowed all four brakes and simply held two in each hand.

Odds are you would probably say a whole bunch of bad words

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Reginald 0]

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this is not what they taught us in class.. Im not sure why.. but Im going with what my coaches tell me

Why not discuss it with your instructors and tell them the SIM says one thing and you thought you were taught to do another. You may find you misunderstood your instructors or that your instructors made a mistake. Alternatively, they will explain to you why they feel they are right and the SIM is wrong. In any case you will learn something. Don’t’ ever be afraid to ask questions!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[MB38 0]

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I've been taught to steer with the rear risers of the front canopy. I've always wondered, however, what would happen if one unstowed all four brakes and simply held two in each hand.

Odds are you would probably say a whole bunch of bad words

Bad words... or more of a crunching sound?

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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? Under what circumstances would cutting away have a been a good option? What about standup vs. PLF?

]

If you had cut away on this one, you could easily be dead. Why discuss it?

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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Why discuss it?

Because it never hurts to understand the reason behind what we are taught to do???

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Because it never hurts to understand the reason behind what we are taught to do???

You're right. However, chopping the main on a biplane is something my first jump students learn not to do, and why not to do it. A good instructor can easily explain the "whys" as he teaches the "whats." In fact, it promotes an in depth understanding of the material, aiding retention. I sometimes see people throw out bad ideas in these forums and leave it up to discussion. If you want reliable answers on safety issues, ask an instructor, preferably in person.

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[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I definately agree with what you are saying.

Being in the self-preservation business, I prefer to get as much knowledge as I can. I can usually sort through the BS and if I get confused ask someone I trust.

All instructors are not 'good' as you described. I was told by an instructor that in a biplane configuration, cutting away or keeping was my choice, whatever I was comfortable with...with no further explanation. Reading the article from PD I posted the link on helped me understand exactly what was going on and the 'science' behind it, I only wish I had been exposed to it BEFORE I got in the predicament and made a very risky decision. My thought pattern was logical with the information I had been given, but if I had known the alternative risks, it surely would have led to a different action.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[RumBum 0]

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Thanks Sudsy!

Here is also an article published on PD's site I found useful as well http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

The person I spoke with at PD when this was an issue for me said most people dont even need to PLF becasue the landings are very light.

Thanks, NtheSeaOrSky, this is a great article