ChrisL 2 #26 May 25, 2007 Quote Even a GOOD message can be trampled on by the delivery :-) kevin Well stated. Still, while it may be that you have spent a lot of time with alcoholics, it sounds like you might wanna spend more time with folks that have actually managed to stay sober long term. If you did you would know that we don't usually express our thoughts on drinking to anyone unless they specifically ask us to. Any other time its a waste of time and breath. Very little of that "Holier than thou" attitude, which is what I think you are objecting to. There is a HUGE difference between those of us that still suffer and those that have been able to put it down long term, and those differences encompass FAR more ground than just whether or not we chose to drink. Anyway...enough PREACHING __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #27 May 25, 2007 Quote Lately I've been wondering what types of situations having an AAD would be detrimental. saw 5 skydivers and 10 canopies open right next to each other. Two downplaned into the ground. All had AAD's. click Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,065 #28 May 25, 2007 >could equally be arguments for NOT having reserves..... I've jumped without a reserve and been fine - because I spent the time packing the main and maintaining the gear. AAD's can increase your safety, as can reserves. The safest jumpers out there don't need either one, and can jump without them - but use them anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #29 May 25, 2007 AADs are a personal decision. I don't think people should be forced to use them, but that is up to the DZO or load organizer. They have to deal with the aftermath if you bounce. The USPA also insists that students use one and the FAA insists that tandems use one. Some situations where you are better off without an AAD is pulling your main low, doing a demo or similar jump where the aircraft's altitudes or duration is outside of the AAD manual's recommendations, riding the airplane down, on some pressurized aircrafts, doing a BASE jump, during CRW, water landings with some AADs, or during swooping where you exceed the AADs firing parameters under a perfectly good main. Ideally the AAD will never fire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 May 25, 2007 Quote Isn't this pretty much as airbags? They've killed some, saved some. However, I think the chances of getting killed by one rather than saved are small... with a bit of common sense, there's your answer. Personally, I think that's a reason to condemn mandatory airbags, but that's a different topic (and forum) Many of the risks from AADs come from turning them on and forgetting (as the marketing lit suggests). You can't ignore the effect on proper opening altitudes. You can't ignore the effect if you're a serious swooper. Even though Airtec used to say you could. IMO, blaiming the AAD for problems from blowing #1 is missing the mark. A lot of risks increase when you go low in a group. With the altitudes we get now, is it really necessary to hum it down to 4000 (or lower) before separation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,065 #31 May 25, 2007 >is it really necessary to hum it down to 4000 (or lower) before separation? Nope. On the other hand, does that mean you have to break off at 5000 to be safe? Nope. USPA certification courses used to take fourways to 3000 feet before breakoff. That worked OK, but there were a few close calls, so they raised it to 3500. Likewise, a lowtimer 4-way may need a higher breakoff altitude than an 8-way team that's been training together for two years. The USPA minimums are a good starting point, as a "never break off lower than" guideline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #32 May 25, 2007 Quote The safest jumpers out there don't need either one Agreed. Most of us don't need either a reserve or an AAD on most jumps. The problem is that one jump when you do need one and haven't got one....... The same arguments can be made for any safety device or safety rules. There are always exceptions or circumstances in which they pose a hazard. Where the argument gains more traction is where the risks that the safety device deals with are less than the additional risks imposed by having it. Using your example, if every jump you were going to be open at 1200 feet, then having an AAD on your reserve might be higher risk than not. Similarly if you swoop every jump, then the risk of a misfire killing you might be higher then the risk of a no pull. Everyone needs to understand and accept the risks they are taking.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #33 May 26, 2007 I know someone from the ranch who has been saved twice by a AAD!!!!!!!!Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamsam 0 #34 May 26, 2007 they probably did, without knowing the circumstances, but I'd take a long hard re-evaluation of my freefall future if that happened to mebut what do I know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #35 May 26, 2007 Quote they probably did, without knowing the circumstances, but I'd take a long hard re-evaluation of my freefall future if that happened to me No shit! Should make a rule like the Air Force...2 ejections and you're done flying! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #36 May 26, 2007 I've been jumping over 20 years without an AAD. The last few years I've logged 20-30 jumps on average, per yr. I have had sugar diabetis type 1 for 40 years and never considered that I should wear an AAD or even wear a medic alert braclet. When getting my reserve re-packed this year the rigger mentioned he had AAD's and asked me if I was interested in purchasing one.....(he has always taken the time for a discussion like this) I declined -but kept thinking about it. 2 weeks later I made the decision to buy a medic alert braclet and wear it? (a first) I decided to invest in my future also and buy a cypres. As my reserve had just been packed and I was making jumps...I was going to wait till next pack job to install....cypres in a box not installed? Ya, right... so I am not jumping this weekend, my main is at home and my container is with my rigger......and AAD is being installed. The best part? It was my personal decision. SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #37 May 27, 2007 Quote I've been jumping over 20 years without an AAD. so you are a bit slow to update your profile thengood on you for the decision. I bet 12 or 14 years ago it was a hot topic with a lot of debate? Rhys"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #38 May 27, 2007 Quote As an alcoholic thats been sober 12 years and doesn't tell ANYONE how they should live, (or what they should be smoking or drinking) and I'm here to tell you that your position is overly judgmental and ill informed, and that you appear to be prejudiced against entire groups based on a few annoying experiences. He used a poor choice of words, but I suspect he meant the preachy ones, not all reformed alcoholics. Like anything, people who have had a life changing experience can tend to preach about the subject. Ex smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics...etc. For example I find that people who hve been religious all their lives are usually OK, but often the ones who have lived an immoral life (what qualifies as immoral I don't know), and who then turn around an "find god" or become a "born again christian", sometimes never stop interjecting jesus into every second sentence. There is at least correlation even if it is unfair to smear the whole group. My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richards 0 #39 May 27, 2007 Quote Quote Every jumper should have an AAD. That is a fine sentiment, and it is in the best interest of all jumpers to reinforce that idea, but please do not make it mandatory. Allow adults to make decisions for themselves (particularly those who can barely afford to be in the sport and might be pushed out by the requirement of such an investment). My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #40 July 12, 2011 Quote People rarely need an AAD, and even then it is more likely to fire because a) they went low or b) they forgot to pull than "getting knocked out" (which is the standard reason for getting one.) The decision to use one is up to each jumper. However, jumpers who are uncurrent are more likely to need such backups than jumpers who are current. Wow Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dks13827 3 #41 July 12, 2011 Some very good jumpers with PUD's, gloves, twisted harnesses, shoulder separations and so on would likely still be here if they had used an AAD. Not saying to make anything mandatory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
