jurgencamps 0 #26 June 28, 2011 QuoteThat would be a pretty significant and fast moving front. I would think that would have been hard to miss. Not neccesarily. But weather here (Belgium) can be different than in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #27 June 28, 2011 John, This a completed 62 way that was taken through 1500 feet of couds a few years ago. It was down in you neck of the woods. You couldn’t drive a tack up my ass with a sledge hammer.Sparky http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/TX62ff-1.jpg My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #28 June 28, 2011 Sounds like you handled the unplaned situatation well. I always noted the cloud base on the way up just in case we went through one. I also glanced down in the first point but that was mainly the check the spot. I don't think a small cloud would have gotten my attention but occassionaly there was a big one and then I was glad I had checked the cloud base.Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 June 28, 2011 Quote This a completed 62 way that was taken through 1500 feet of couds a few years ago. It was down in you neck of the woods. You couldn’t drive a tack up my ass with a sledge hammer. Hi Sparky. Yep, when you get that many people in a cloud together, that's getting really scary. A 5-way is fairly uneventful and controllable compared to that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #30 June 28, 2011 A few years ago doing bigways in Florida on an attempted 160 way I went into a cloud a few seconds after break-off. I don’t remember my break-off altitude (5500 maybe) but I was in the second ring. Did my best to stay straight and track my ass off. I knew from our previous jumps as long as the outer ring tracked as they had been I wouldn’t catch them but damn that was scary. Seemed like forever. Didn’t come out of it until I was going through about 2 grand. Took a furious look around while waiving like a madman and dumped. My altitrak reads a deployment altitude of 1620. I landed on the golf course. Dumb, dumb, dumb. We sat for the rest of the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hallux 0 #31 June 28, 2011 you should have checked your spot and not jumped. especially with your experience. Did the weather get worse and jumping stopped? or was it like that all day? with jumpers smashing clouds? I hope you dont have any enemies in this sport that dont give a crap about the sport and just want to get you in trouble regardless of how it affects the sport as a whole. Everyone in this sport has busted a cloud but you probably shouldnt post about it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #32 June 28, 2011 I ALWAYS felt the most important thing about punching a cloud was knowing what the base of it was. The higher the base, the better I felt about it. MOST aircraft have windows and most of us have altimeters so there's almost no excuse for not knowing. They aren't going to change much from the time you go through them on climb to the time you go through them again in freefall. Quote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. 12 way, the plan......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom. Great dive, good breakoff, everyone facing in as we hit the cloud, 2500 solid, 2000 solid, 1800 still solid but everyone getting more scared of the ground than a canopy collision, people fire, out the bottom as canopy is deploying. No storm, no fronts, almost no winds, the bottoms dropped 1200' in 5 minutes. People watching from the ground said it was beautiful watching the canopies blossum as we all appeared out of nowhere. 1/2 hour later, blue skies for the day. Just saying, it doesn't take a storm front for things to change in a hurry.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #33 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuote A few years ago doing bigways in Florida on an attempted 160 way I went into a cloud... you should have checked your spot and not jumped. especially with your experience. And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. Someone else picks the spot, and if you want to succeed in making the group formation, everyone else has to trust that spotter and exit according to plan. You don't have the luxury of every single jumper pausing in the door and looking down, to make their own individual determination about whether or not the spot is good. That's true even on smaller dives, like 20-ways out of an Otter, or an Otter with multiple groups. Sometimes you get the spot that someone else gave you. And since we're all human, sometimes those spots aren't perfect. If you (generic "you") have been in the sport any length of time, and have never made an imperfect spot, don't be too sanctimonious, because sooner or later, you will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites david3 0 #34 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote A few years ago doing bigways in Florida on an attempted 160 way I went into a cloud... you should have checked your spot and not jumped. especially with your experience. And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. Someone else picks the spot, and if you want to succeed in making the group formation, everyone else has to trust that spotter and exit according to plan. You don't have the luxury of every single jumper pausing in the door and looking down, to make their own individual determination about whether or not the spot is good. That's true even on smaller dives, like 20-ways out of an Otter, or an Otter with multiple groups. Sometimes you get the spot that someone else gave you. And since we're all human, sometimes those spots aren't perfect. If you (generic "you") have been in the sport any length of time, and have never made an imperfect spot, don't be too sanctimonious, because sooner or later, you will. What he said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites elightle 8 #35 June 28, 2011 Quote...And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. At my DZ, we can request a go-around. We did that a couple weekends ago because we knew it would hose the whole load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #36 June 28, 2011 QuoteAt my DZ, we can request a go-around. We did that a couple weekends ago because we knew it would hose the whole load. Certainly. And you can make corrections left or right on jump run, go as soon as the green light comes on or delay a while, or decide not to go at all. There are lots of options. DZO's may not like go-around's because they cost fuel and time, but if you've got a good reason for one, don't be afraid to do it. With the maneuverability of today's ram-air chutes, precise spotting isn't as important as it used to be - you can be off a bit and still have no problem getting home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #37 June 28, 2011 QuoteI ALWAYS felt the most important thing about punching a cloud was knowing what the base of it was. The higher the base, the better I felt about it. MOST aircraft have windows and most of us have altimeters so there's almost no excuse for not knowing. They aren't going to change much from the time you go through them on climb to the time you go through them again in freefall. Quote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. And it didn't occur to you that was marginal to begin with? I wasn't there. I don't know what you'd normally consider to be a standard break off height, however, normal for most people is 4,000. Jumping RW and knowing you're going to be punching an undercast with bases at 2,700 seems like you're kind of pushing things already.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kuai43 7 #38 June 29, 2011 QuoteQuote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. And it didn't occur to you that was marginal to begin with? I wasn't there. I don't know what you'd normally consider to be a standard break off height, however, normal for most people is 4,000. Jumping RW and knowing you're going to be punching an undercast with bases at 2,700 seems like you're kind of pushing things already. You may have missed this part. ......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom.Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #39 June 29, 2011 QuoteYou may have missed this part. ......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom.taking the cloud base as opening altitude is not the cleverest... As already mentionned, clouds move, so does the base... Already heard the "I'm not pulling before I'm out of the cloud" theory (multi-thousand jumps jumper).. He changed his procedure after a Cypres fire and finished at sea... I already had clouds going down from 2500ft (when we were going up) to 900ft (when I came out of it)... Add some hilly/moutain environent, and you will realize that altitude is altitude, and sometimes you don't have the possibility to smoke it low.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #40 June 29, 2011 Quote I had to brake and turn to miss a VFR Bonanza under canopy last year. At the Canopy Piloting Nationals. On a competition run. 1/2 through my downwind leg at 2000ft. Video, or it didn't happen! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #41 June 29, 2011 QuoteIf the cloud tops are at four grand, I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive. Wow. I do not know about this. ...Cloud TOP altitudes, can vary much more greatly and wider than cloud base altitudes, don't you think John? They can also dissipate much quicker too. Meaning, that those cloud tops you gaged at being say 4,000 during your climb up to jumprun - could be entirely different (read: surprisingly much lower) than you expected on your way back down, - no?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #42 June 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf the cloud tops are at four grand, I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive. Wow. I do not know about this. ...Cloud TOP altitudes, can vary much more greatly and wider than cloud base altitudes, don't you think John? They can also dissipate much quicker too. Meaning, that those cloud tops you gaged at being say 4,000 during your climb up to jumprun - could be entirely different (read: surprisingly much lower) than you expected on your way back down, - no? That was just an example. I may use the cloud bottoms if that altitude is more to my liking. If the cloud tops aren't relatively uniform, I won't use them for reference. Even if they vary a bit, it's not a problem because I judge conservatively, leaving plenty of room to decelerate before pull time at 2,500'. Lacking clouds for reference, I'll just count seconds in my head, stopping my dive at a conservative number. I'll typically eat up the altitude from 14k on a 250 mph dive in 45 seconds before pulling, but I only count 30 seconds before flaring out. Furthermore, I have decades of experience with the weather and cloud patterns in the area where I jump, and I think I'm a better judge of those things then you are. I wouldn't presume to tell you how clouds behave in Pennsylvania, so perhaps you shouldn't tell me about how clouds behave on the Texas prairie. If you think I'm dangerous, don't jump with me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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JohnRich 4 #33 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuote A few years ago doing bigways in Florida on an attempted 160 way I went into a cloud... you should have checked your spot and not jumped. especially with your experience. And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. Someone else picks the spot, and if you want to succeed in making the group formation, everyone else has to trust that spotter and exit according to plan. You don't have the luxury of every single jumper pausing in the door and looking down, to make their own individual determination about whether or not the spot is good. That's true even on smaller dives, like 20-ways out of an Otter, or an Otter with multiple groups. Sometimes you get the spot that someone else gave you. And since we're all human, sometimes those spots aren't perfect. If you (generic "you") have been in the sport any length of time, and have never made an imperfect spot, don't be too sanctimonious, because sooner or later, you will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #34 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote A few years ago doing bigways in Florida on an attempted 160 way I went into a cloud... you should have checked your spot and not jumped. especially with your experience. And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. Someone else picks the spot, and if you want to succeed in making the group formation, everyone else has to trust that spotter and exit according to plan. You don't have the luxury of every single jumper pausing in the door and looking down, to make their own individual determination about whether or not the spot is good. That's true even on smaller dives, like 20-ways out of an Otter, or an Otter with multiple groups. Sometimes you get the spot that someone else gave you. And since we're all human, sometimes those spots aren't perfect. If you (generic "you") have been in the sport any length of time, and have never made an imperfect spot, don't be too sanctimonious, because sooner or later, you will. What he said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elightle 8 #35 June 28, 2011 Quote...And with your experience, you should know that we don't always get to pick our own spots, especially so on giant big-way dives. At my DZ, we can request a go-around. We did that a couple weekends ago because we knew it would hose the whole load. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #36 June 28, 2011 QuoteAt my DZ, we can request a go-around. We did that a couple weekends ago because we knew it would hose the whole load. Certainly. And you can make corrections left or right on jump run, go as soon as the green light comes on or delay a while, or decide not to go at all. There are lots of options. DZO's may not like go-around's because they cost fuel and time, but if you've got a good reason for one, don't be afraid to do it. With the maneuverability of today's ram-air chutes, precise spotting isn't as important as it used to be - you can be off a bit and still have no problem getting home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #37 June 28, 2011 QuoteI ALWAYS felt the most important thing about punching a cloud was knowing what the base of it was. The higher the base, the better I felt about it. MOST aircraft have windows and most of us have altimeters so there's almost no excuse for not knowing. They aren't going to change much from the time you go through them on climb to the time you go through them again in freefall. Quote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. And it didn't occur to you that was marginal to begin with? I wasn't there. I don't know what you'd normally consider to be a standard break off height, however, normal for most people is 4,000. Jumping RW and knowing you're going to be punching an undercast with bases at 2,700 seems like you're kind of pushing things already.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kuai43 7 #38 June 29, 2011 QuoteQuote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. And it didn't occur to you that was marginal to begin with? I wasn't there. I don't know what you'd normally consider to be a standard break off height, however, normal for most people is 4,000. Jumping RW and knowing you're going to be punching an undercast with bases at 2,700 seems like you're kind of pushing things already. You may have missed this part. ......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom.Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuai43 7 #38 June 29, 2011 QuoteQuote That's what I used to think.... Nice 4th of July weekend boogie, over 15 years ago, private airport, fast-climbing King-air, solid cloud layer, but thin, time to jump. Bases at 2700 on the last jump, same on the climb to altitude. And it didn't occur to you that was marginal to begin with? I wasn't there. I don't know what you'd normally consider to be a standard break off height, however, normal for most people is 4,000. Jumping RW and knowing you're going to be punching an undercast with bases at 2,700 seems like you're kind of pushing things already. You may have missed this part. ......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom.Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #39 June 29, 2011 QuoteYou may have missed this part. ......break at 5500, track to the tops, around 3800, hold position and pull after coming out the bottom.taking the cloud base as opening altitude is not the cleverest... As already mentionned, clouds move, so does the base... Already heard the "I'm not pulling before I'm out of the cloud" theory (multi-thousand jumps jumper).. He changed his procedure after a Cypres fire and finished at sea... I already had clouds going down from 2500ft (when we were going up) to 900ft (when I came out of it)... Add some hilly/moutain environent, and you will realize that altitude is altitude, and sometimes you don't have the possibility to smoke it low.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #40 June 29, 2011 Quote I had to brake and turn to miss a VFR Bonanza under canopy last year. At the Canopy Piloting Nationals. On a competition run. 1/2 through my downwind leg at 2000ft. Video, or it didn't happen! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #41 June 29, 2011 QuoteIf the cloud tops are at four grand, I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive. Wow. I do not know about this. ...Cloud TOP altitudes, can vary much more greatly and wider than cloud base altitudes, don't you think John? They can also dissipate much quicker too. Meaning, that those cloud tops you gaged at being say 4,000 during your climb up to jumprun - could be entirely different (read: surprisingly much lower) than you expected on your way back down, - no?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #42 June 29, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf the cloud tops are at four grand, I just dive until I'm even with the cloud tops, and that's when I know to end my dive. Wow. I do not know about this. ...Cloud TOP altitudes, can vary much more greatly and wider than cloud base altitudes, don't you think John? They can also dissipate much quicker too. Meaning, that those cloud tops you gaged at being say 4,000 during your climb up to jumprun - could be entirely different (read: surprisingly much lower) than you expected on your way back down, - no? That was just an example. I may use the cloud bottoms if that altitude is more to my liking. If the cloud tops aren't relatively uniform, I won't use them for reference. Even if they vary a bit, it's not a problem because I judge conservatively, leaving plenty of room to decelerate before pull time at 2,500'. Lacking clouds for reference, I'll just count seconds in my head, stopping my dive at a conservative number. I'll typically eat up the altitude from 14k on a 250 mph dive in 45 seconds before pulling, but I only count 30 seconds before flaring out. Furthermore, I have decades of experience with the weather and cloud patterns in the area where I jump, and I think I'm a better judge of those things then you are. I wouldn't presume to tell you how clouds behave in Pennsylvania, so perhaps you shouldn't tell me about how clouds behave on the Texas prairie. If you think I'm dangerous, don't jump with me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
