Deisel 38 #1 June 2, 2011 Does anyone else see anything wrong here? http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/NASCAR-driver-Brian-Vickers-parachutes-into-Daytona-Speedway-060111The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tmarine253 0 #2 June 2, 2011 I'm failing to see how it is a demo jump. In the video it doesn't look like anyone is at the track. And, I am assuming if NASCAR approves it then he can do it since it is their property (or if its not NASCAR's property whoever owns the property). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #3 June 2, 2011 If USPA gave him a license then they have a say in it. SIM Chapter 7 A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tmarine253 0 #4 June 2, 2011 I feel that, the way I am justifying it, and this may not be the way it went down is all about private property. For example, if I know someone with a big piece of land and with a plane, and the airspace is good to jump. What regulation is there that says I can't do it. So the way I see them as justifying it is that whoever owns the track said he could jump. He probably got a plane and just did it. I am not really too informed on the Pro rating requirements, but I don't really see how the USPA can have anything to say about it if it went down like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #5 June 2, 2011 Yep, you're right about what happens on the ground. But there are a few regulations that say this is illegal. The FAA decides who can do what in the air. The pilot has to be properly licensed to fly jumpers. USPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. This is done to ensure that the people doing the demo actually know what they are doing and do not pose a public safety threat. Search for Red Bull demo and you will see some of the politics involved in something like this.The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #6 June 2, 2011 Seriously? I'm of the mindset of 'so f'n what?' ..and I gotta ask ya, 'Why do you care \ what axe you grinding?Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deisel 38 #7 June 2, 2011 Easy big fella! No axe grinding here - just having a chat about sky jumpin. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree, just discussing a news stroy about our sport is all. DThe brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tmarine253 0 #8 June 2, 2011 Diesel I got you. And the reason I actually am curious about this is because if he did violate regulations it pisses me off that because he is a NASCAR driver and has 70 jumps he can skydive into the track. If I asked to jump into the Daytona Speedway I am pretty sure I would get a huge fuck no. Not to mention now that I think about it, there is the Daytona International Airport right next to that place. Dangerous shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #9 June 2, 2011 QuoteDiesel I got you. And the reason I actually am curious about this is because if he did violate regulations it pisses me off that because he is a NASCAR driver and has 70 jumps he can skydive into the track. If I asked to jump into the Daytona Speedway I am pretty sure I would get a huge fuck no. Not to mention now that I think about it, there is the Daytona International Airport right next to that place. Dangerous shit. *sigh* if he's a nascar driver jumping into a nascar track, I am pretty sure they have their ducks in a row to have him land on what is basically their open field. Without spectators I would have a hard time calling this a demo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angle228 0 #10 June 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteDiesel I got you. And the reason I actually am curious about this is because if he did violate regulations it pisses me off that because he is a NASCAR driver and has 70 jumps he can skydive into the track. If I asked to jump into the Daytona Speedway I am pretty sure I would get a huge fuck no. Not to mention now that I think about it, there is the Daytona International Airport right next to that place. Dangerous shit. *sigh* if he's a nascar driver jumping into a nascar track, I am pretty sure they have their ducks in a row to have him land on what is basically their open field. Without spectators I would have a hard time calling this a demo. its a demo... "A skydiving enthusiast since 2007, Vickers became the first driver in series history to parachute into the speedway as a promotional kickoff for the July 2 Coke Zero 400"I am fucking your mom right now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #11 June 2, 2011 Quote USPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. . Do you make this shit up yourself or do you have somebody help you?Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #12 June 2, 2011 I am not sure how big the site is, but I would assume that it is large enough to meet the open field or level 1 requirements (effectively 250 000 square foot or bigger). Then the requirements are for a C license plus a few other restrictions. For what it is worth if the article is correct then with 70 jumps, he doesn't meet the 200 jump requirement. I don't know if it is possible to waiver that requirement though? That said maybe he was just late for the event and it wasn't for the benefit of the spectatorsThe media often get stuff wrong, so for all we know the 70 jumps was this year. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #13 June 2, 2011 QuoteQuote USPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. . Do you make this shit up yourself or do you have somebody help you? there's also no evidence that the Vickers dude actually DID jump into the Race track, the camera flyer did but that was not vickers. It's an AD,You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #14 June 2, 2011 +1 QuoteWithout spectators I would have a hard time calling this a demo. If part of the definition of Demo is "principally for the benefit of spectators" and there are no spectators, how can it be a demo? For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 June 2, 2011 [rep Quote That said maybe he was just late for the event and it wasn't for the benefit of the spectators ...the only way he could be first at anything.... My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 June 2, 2011 QuoteIf part of the definition of Demo is "principally for the benefit of spectators" and there are no spectators, how can it be a demo? How many observers does it take to qualify as "spectators"? Maybe the key word is "principally".My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #17 June 2, 2011 based on his own quote,, about "how tight and how many obstacles there were"..... and on the description of a "tumbling sliding landing" i'd say he was Not quite Qualified for the " off site Jump"... in the FIRST place,,,, demo... or not a demo.. is just a matter of semantics... for sure he did a poor job of DEMOnstrating much more than "the laws of gravity",,, which basically state that anything tossed out of a plane.... WILL eventually hit the ground.....!!!! glad he didn't get hurt... drive baby drive...leave these sorta skydives to Others... jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 568 #18 June 2, 2011 Ok serious question here. From the wording of the SIM would a jump for an advert be classified as an exhibition jump? Granted an experienced jumper is going to make a better ad than a low jump numbers person.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #19 June 2, 2011 QuoteThe pilot has to be properly licensed to fly jumpers. Only a Commercial lincense is required. Some even argue (wrongly, I believe) that only a Private is required. There is no FAA "Jump Pilot" rating. QuoteUSPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. Anyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. Not really. USPA has minimum field requirements for students. Even those are waiverable. Licensed jumpers (not doing demos) can land in pretty much any field they have permission to. QuoteThis is done to ensure that the people doing the demo actually know what they are doing and do not pose a public safety threat. Assuming it is a demo jump. No spectators = no demo. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #20 June 2, 2011 No definition of a demo - USPA or FAA - includes a minimum head count. And maybe it's me, but I think I see a lot of people in those stands. I'd say the people I see in the video sort of over-qualify as a bunch of spectators. USPA's BSR's clearly state that a Level 2 demo requires a D license. And I'd say this was at least a Level 2. If a demo is being insured by the USPA then I'd imagine meeting BSR's would be insisted upon but in a private deal I don't know that any of that must be taken into account. Skydiving without the USPA is a legal activity. Membership is not required. If you meet Federal requirements (filing of the NOTAM and obtaining the Certificate of Authorization) and have landowner permission, I believe you're good to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #21 June 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf part of the definition of Demo is "principally for the benefit of spectators" and there are no spectators, how can it be a demo? How many observers does it take to qualify as "spectators"? Maybe the key word is "principally". That depends on the FAA. It really depends on the opinion of the guy in charge of the local FSDO. Around here (northeast Wisconsin, Green Bay FSDO) the FAA guy has said that more than one person constitutes a crowd. There have been a couple non-waivered demos that went spectacularly bad around here and the FAA clamped down hard. We've done a bunch of "off-DZ-non-demo jumps" in the past. File a NOTAM, get permission from the landowner, pilot in contact with ATC. Perfectly legal. (Search the term "Bandit Jump" for more). Mostly our jumpers arriving at a party in a rather spectacular manner. AC-105-2c, 15 covers demos, what constitutes a demo and when a 7711-1 is needed. SIM section 7 covers everything else. If there wasn't a crowd of spectators, then this wasn't a demo. Maybe not the best decision by a lot of people, but not illegal."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #22 June 2, 2011 QuoteSome even argue (wrongly, I believe) that only a Private is required. I would argue under very specific conditions you only need a private ticket. Those conditions would basically be nobody is paying anybody any money for any part of the the skydive. A rigger who packed his own reserve and main doing a solo jump not using rental gear would qualify. Other than that, your are probably engaging in commerce. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimemerson 7 #23 June 2, 2011 Quote If there wasn't a crowd of spectators, then this wasn't a demo. No need to be a "crowd" at all. Aside from personal opinion, someone show me where the number, the quantity, of spectators determines whether it is a demo. Or show me where the attendance of any spectator is required. Where, in the SIM Section 7 part A it says, "and principally for the benefit of spectators", I take the to mean that spectators is usually what a demo is about, that there's a certain logic in having someone on the ground getting their jollys watching the skydiver. But it doesn't make it a requirement without which negates the "demo" status. So, there's opinion or popular accepted definition of a demo. Then there's what the Feds or USPA doesn't actually say. Legally, it's a demo if your dog is watching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #24 June 2, 2011 >Aside from personal opinion, someone show me where the number, the quantity, >of spectators determines whether it is a demo. FAR part 105: "congested area" or "open air assembly of persons" So two or more people, in the open, qualifies as a demo under 105.21 and requires a certificate of authorization. ("Congested areas" are marked on VFR sectionals.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 June 2, 2011 QuoteThe pilot has to be properly licensed to fly jumpers. A private pilot can fly jumpers as long as it is not "for hire". QuoteUSPA certifies that existing drop zones meet some minimum requirements in conjunction with the FAA. The FAA does no such thing. QuoteAnyplace other than those have to get waivers from both the FAA and USPA. No and No. If it is not a DEMO, a NOTAM has to be filed with the FAA, but that is about it. QuoteA demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport. A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport. Bolding makes all all the difference. This was not a "demo" since there were no people in the stands "principally for the benefit of spectators"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
