billvon 2,989 #26 March 27, 2011 >Does wearing a seatbelt make you a reckless driver? Slightly, yes. Booth's Law states that once you make a device that makes it safer for someone to do something, they will take more risks. Overall their risk may go down, but overall they will tend towards risky behavior. The general term for this is "risk homeostasis." >having something that MAY open it is much better than having nothing IMHO Definitely. However, there have been cases where jumpers relied on an AAD to make a jump they otherwise would not have made; this is a case of AAD's making jumpers less safe rather than more safe. (However, overall they do make skydiving safer.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tomex 0 #27 March 27, 2011 Trea... You hit the nail on the head... The day is coming for regulation and oversight on the AAD use... This is not a result of skydivers, being skydivers. Enough said.... The sky is big enough for everyone... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #28 March 27, 2011 Quote>Does wearing a seatbelt make you a reckless driver? Slightly, yes. Booth's Law states that once you make a device that makes it safer for someone to do something, they will take more risks. Overall their risk may go down, but overall they will tend towards risky behavior. The general term for this is "risk homeostasis." >having something that MAY open it is much better than having nothing IMHO Definitely. However, there have been cases where jumpers relied on an AAD to make a jump they otherwise would not have made; this is a case of AAD's making jumpers less safe rather than more safe. (However, overall they do make skydiving safer.) +1 Adding to bill's points, I'll ask rygon if he has ever heard someone say that wearing his seatbelt allows him to crash instead of attempting to avoid it. I never have. What I do hear is that some people think they are good enough drivers to not really need them, but in acceptance of the fact that others might not be so, they wear them to account for what the other guy will do. Mapping that onto skydiving, that's like a jumper saying that the AAD is for if someone knocks him out, not so that he can ignore pulling for himself. Now, rygon, maybe you don't say that you can ignore pulling because you have an AAD. But some have said it, and some have shown that they actually believe it as well. Those are clearly cases where the AAD has helped made a less safe skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #29 March 27, 2011 List time in market for each mgf: cypres - 1991 or 20 years vigil - 1997 or 14 years argus - well, no longer in biz apparently if you review website that's how I chose mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #30 March 27, 2011 Quote>Does wearing a seatbelt make you a reckless driver? Slightly, yes. Reference, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #31 March 27, 2011 Quote...but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just.... You are forced to use a parachute and they fail regularly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #32 March 27, 2011 QuoteList time in market for each mgf: cypres - 1991 or 20 years vigil - 1997 or 14 years argus - well, no longer in biz apparently if you review website that's how I chose mine. http://www.cypres.cc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96&Itemid=130&lang=enFirst CYPRES for sale was in 1991 http://www.vigil.aero/about-us Per Vigil they started selling units in 2003Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #33 March 27, 2011 Quote Quote *** now people are expecting the use of an AAD will prevent them from becoming a fatality. AAD have prevented a whole lot of people to become fatalities and could have saved a lot of other.... I don't dispute that. I only said people now expect an AAD will prevent them from bouncing.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #34 March 27, 2011 Quote Quote ...but to be forced to use a device that can fail is not just.... You are forced to use a parachute and they fail regularly. That analogy only works if you're forced to leave the plane.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #35 March 27, 2011 Quote Quote Quote *** now people are expecting the use of an AAD will prevent them from becoming a fatality. AAD have prevented a whole lot of people to become fatalities and could have saved a lot of other.... I don't dispute that. I only said people now expect an AAD will prevent them from bouncing. I jumped for YEARS w/o an AAD I have one now as a contingency plan/insurance for the unlikely chance that somehow I could become incapcitated. Its not guaranteed, but gives me a better chance of survival vs. not having one... I owe it to myself and my child. licensed skydivers should have the option of jumping w/o one, if they so choose.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 March 27, 2011 QuoteI've wondered how thiis: I decided to jump with larger groups in wingsuits. Thinking of the increased danger of becoming incapacitated by a midair collision, I decided to get an AAD. Turns into this: I am OK jlying in dangerous situations because I know my AAD witll always save me. Because you said you would not do the big WS jumps without the AAD, but will with it. Not a difficult concept: 1. Without the AAD you would avoid the situation. 2. With the AAD you will not. Windsor said it best... An AAD is like carrying a handgun. Could be really great to have if you are in a bad place. But if you go to the bad place because you have a handgun.... you are an idiot."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #37 March 27, 2011 >Reference, please. From the Wiki article: ================================ Risk homeostasis is a hypothesis about risk, developed by Gerald J.S. Wilde, a professor emeritus of psychology at Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada. This hypothesis is elucidated in Wilde's book. The idea of risk homeostasis has garnered criticism. The hypothesis of risk homeostasis holds that everyone has his or her own fixed level of acceptable risk. When the level of risk in one part of the individual's life changes, there will be a corresponding rise or fall in risk elsewhere to bring the overall risk back to that individual's equilibrium. Wilde argues that the same is true of larger human systems, e.g. a population of drivers. For example, in a Munich study, half a fleet of taxicabs were equipped with anti-lock brakes (ABS), while the other half had conventional brake systems. The crash rate was the same for both types of cab, and Wilde concludes this was owing to drivers of ABS-equipped cabs taking more risks, assuming that ABS would take care of them, while the non-ABS drivers drove more carefully since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation. Likewise, it's been found that drivers behave less carefully around bicyclists wearing helmets than around unhelmeted riders. Wilde states that the massive increase in car safety features has had little effect on the rate or costs of crashes overall, and argues that safety campaigns tend to shift rather than reduce risk. ================================= Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #38 March 27, 2011 QuoteThis is pure and simply a political witch hunt. A great product is being attacked by a group of hacks that have everything to gain from taking out Argus. Atlas is shrugging within the skydiving community. quoted in case you want to change your mind later.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #39 March 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteI've wondered how thiis: I decided to jump with larger groups in wingsuits. Thinking of the increased danger of becoming incapacitated by a midair collision, I decided to get an AAD. Turns into this: I am OK jlying in dangerous situations because I know my AAD witll always save me. Because you said you would not do the big WS jumps without the AAD, but will with it. No, I didn't say that. My statement was the first, you just read it as the second. So what is your plan if you get knocked out during a skydive?But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 March 27, 2011 QuoteNo, I didn't say that. My statement was the first, you just read it as the second To quote you: Quotewent without one for a few hundred jumps. but I saw that bigger way flocks could be a dangerous place and I could get hit without ever seeing it coming. With an AAD: may well die anyway, without one: no chance. Do the math. So instead of avoiding the danger, you decided to get an AAD and do them anyway."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #41 March 27, 2011 Ok, thanks for providing my original statement. I think it stands by itself, as to what it does and does not say. So what about my question? What's your plan if you get knocked out during a skydive I hope to hear your answer to this one, this time.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 March 28, 2011 QuoteI think it stands by itself, as to what it does and does not say Yes, that you will do more dangerous things when you have an AAD that you would without it. QuoteWhat's your plan if you get knocked out during a skydive The step that I do that you ignore is trying to PREVENT the accident by making choices to avoid the situation. As for my plan if I get knocked out... Does not matter what my 'plan' is... I would not be awake and therefore not able to execute any plan. So it is a silly question that does not answer jack. My plan is to avoid dangerous situations first, then have an AAD in the 1 in 10 chance a 'save' was actually due to being knocked out. The difference is I use good judgement to avoid situations where you use an AAD to go it more dangerous situations."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #43 March 28, 2011 Exactly the answer I was expecting. Thanks.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #44 March 28, 2011 >What's your plan if you get knocked out during a skydive For me, in order of preference: 1) Have my AAD fire 2) Have someone deploy me 3) Have it happen after I deploy 4) Die Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #45 March 28, 2011 Quote>What's your plan if you get knocked out during a skydive For me, in order of preference: 1) Have my AAD fire 2) Have someone deploy me 3) Have it happen after I deploy 4) Die Annnnnnd thread, over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #46 March 28, 2011 QuoteMy plan is to avoid dangerous situations first, then have an AAD in the 1 in 10 chance a 'save' was actually due to being knocked out. Quote Me too! I guess we are on the same page after all!But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #47 March 28, 2011 QuoteThis is pure and simply a political witch hunt. A great product is being attacked by a group of hacks that have everything to gain from taking out Argus. Atlas is shrugging within the skydiving community. Do you have a source to back up this statement or is it just your opinion? Good maybe, adequate maybe, great I don’t think so. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #48 March 28, 2011 That has GOT to be the stupidest document EVER written! Even The National Inquirer could not come up with something so twistedly stupid.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #49 March 28, 2011 Quote Quote My plan is to avoid dangerous situations first, then have an AAD in the 1 in 10 chance a 'save' was actually due to being knocked out. Quote Me too! I guess we are on the same page after all! Gets my vote for the fastest back-pedaling ever! Congrats! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #50 March 28, 2011 QuoteMe too! I guess we are on the same page after all! Your earlier comments say otherwise.... But hey, I don't know why you are trying to prove yourself to some guy you don't know. You will do more dangerous things because you have an AAD. I avoid doing the dangerous things AND have AAD. Significant difference, but I do not expect you to admit that. Have fun, this has gotten old."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
mjosparky 4 #47 March 28, 2011 QuoteThis is pure and simply a political witch hunt. A great product is being attacked by a group of hacks that have everything to gain from taking out Argus. Atlas is shrugging within the skydiving community. Do you have a source to back up this statement or is it just your opinion? Good maybe, adequate maybe, great I don’t think so. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #48 March 28, 2011 That has GOT to be the stupidest document EVER written! Even The National Inquirer could not come up with something so twistedly stupid.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #49 March 28, 2011 Quote Quote My plan is to avoid dangerous situations first, then have an AAD in the 1 in 10 chance a 'save' was actually due to being knocked out. Quote Me too! I guess we are on the same page after all! Gets my vote for the fastest back-pedaling ever! Congrats! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #50 March 28, 2011 QuoteMe too! I guess we are on the same page after all! Your earlier comments say otherwise.... But hey, I don't know why you are trying to prove yourself to some guy you don't know. You will do more dangerous things because you have an AAD. I avoid doing the dangerous things AND have AAD. Significant difference, but I do not expect you to admit that. Have fun, this has gotten old."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
